Source: https://sai-zen-sen.jp/works/extras/faust07higurashi/01/01.html
Introduction
In May 2005, a long interview with Ryukishi07 appeared in volume 5 of the literary magazine Faust by Kodansha. It was the time when Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, which had been attracting a lot of attention, finally entered the solution phase with the announcement of Meakashi-hen.
“Why would a literary magazine talk about Ryukishi07?”
“Aren’t games and literature incompatible?”
Some readers seemed to have such questions. However, “being popular right now” isn’t enough to be featured. There was a solid reason for this.
The answers are all in this interview.
The interviewers are Katsushi Ota, editor-in-chief of Faust, and also writer and game developer Koji Watanabe. Both will take a unique look at the backbone and creative roots of Ryukishi07 and the structure of Higurashi.
Six months later, Ryukishi07 published his novel Kaidan to Odorou, soshite Anata ha Kaidan de Odoru in Faust vol. 6 Side-A and Side-B. This special feature on the character and journey of Ryukishi07 can be called a prologue to the novelist Ryukishi07, who is more than just a doujin game writer.
This is a rare reprint of the interview, revived after six and a half years.
KEIYA
— Congratulations on the completion and release of Meakashi-hen. This series is an undeniable masterpiece, which I don’t need to put into words. I have enjoyed it immensely.
Ryukishi07: Thank you. I am relieved.
— If Meakashi-hen is the solution, then Watanagashi-hen could be positioned as the problem. For the first time in my career as a literary editor, I wanted to extract only the text of a game and publish it as is in Kodansha Novels.
Ryukishi07: Is that OK to do? *laughs*
— Of course, I rarely come up with such ideas by mistake. I dislike novelizations that lack artistry, and since I consider novel games to be a new mode of expression that uses text as one of its key elements, rather than novels themselves, such an act is essentially a great misunderstanding and sacrilege against expression. But Higurashi no Naku Koro ni is special. I think this work is an “invention” that expands the dimension of expression of conventional novels and novel games, and presents the possibility of a new way of storytelling. I do not think the greatness of this “invention” would be impaired in any way if it were converted into a novel form. Therefore, I would like to send a formal proposal to you again after its completion.
Ryukishi07: I am thrilled to hear this, but it’s also somewhat frightening. But before that, I may have to finish Higurashi no Naku Koro ni first. I will do my best *laughs*
— We have heard that the entire game is scheduled to be completed next summer, so the real battle is just about to begin. I am both impatient and thrilled to think that this pleasure will continue for another year or more. Well, I would like to begin with a brief explanation from the editor-in-chief of Faust Vol. 5, which will feature Higurashi no Naku Koro ni by Ryukishi07. I played it for the first time at the end of last summer, and I was strongly impressed. In Faust Vol. 3, which was published that summer, I ran a special feature on “shindenki”, which featured a competition between three authors, Kinoko Nasu, Udaru Harada, and Masaki Motonaga. In the opening paragraph I wrote about how I was struck by the synchronicity of the fact that there were other people who were simultaneously working in the genre of bishojo games, which Nasu and his colleagues had created, to depict the boundary between the “ordinary and the extraordinary” in their stories. I thought to myself, “I have to get one of these talents to write a new work on Faust!”. And so, I contacted Ryukishi07.
Ryukishi07: When I first met you, I had a passion to try my hand at something other than Higurashi, so the timing of the meeting was very interesting. Unfortunately, I am a person who rarely reads printed words, so I am afraid I did not know about Faust, but since Nasu-san, whom I greatly respect, was publishing there, I thought I had to pay attention to this magazine.
— Thank you. Now, Faust is not a video game magazine, so I don’t think it would be a good idea to try a just put a strategy guide here. Therefore, I would like to focus on the personality and the character of Ryukishi07 and where he is going. Today, I would like to conduct a long interview with Ryukishi07 prior to the talk session with him and Kinoko Nasu scheduled for a later date, and I have appointed Koji Watanabe-san as the interviewer. As you know, Watanabe-san is a living witness to the developing of Japanese game industry, having been a part of the scene since the dawn of it. Through his books such as Hirakikomori no Susume (Kodansha Gendai Shinsho), he is also trying to encourage “individuals” to communicate with the rest of the world. In this way, Watanabe-san is one of those who have created the backbone of Ryukishi07’s emergence, and I can think of no one more qualified to be the interviewer for Faust.
Koji Watanabe: Nice to meet you.
— When I first met Ryukishi07, there was something that left me speechless. That is when I realized he is a talent that came out of the world of novel games in a purely cultured way. While I was playing Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, I was convinced that Ryukishi07 must have been immersed in the shin honkaku mystery scene, and I thought, “He must also be a fan of Yokomizo Seishi!”, but that wasn’t the case at all *laughs* As an editor of Kodansha Novels, I felt that this was a problem. For example, Kinoko Nasu was clearly a talent that came out of the shin honkaku mystery genre, a talent that was very close to my context as an editor. But Ryukishi07 is clearly different from Nasu-san in this respect. When we first met, he told me he had never even heard of Kyogoku Natsuhiko until recently. “What does that mean?”, I thought.
Ryukishi07: I learned Kyogoku-san’s name only after hearing it from a fan. He also said, “I’m sure you like Kyogoku-san”… *bitter laugh* Now I am very embarrassed that I did not know the name of someone as great as Kyogoku-san…
— But my thinking has also made a 180° turn since then. What I mean is that the world of novel games that Ryukishi07 has emerged from has a history of over ten years, starting with Kamaitachi no Yoru [*1], for which Takemaru Abiko was in charge of the scenario. I realized that the world of novel games has already accumulated a wealth of talent over a long period enough for talent to only emerge from there. Besides, the essence of the shin honkaku mystery, which I love, is present in the starting point of the novel game genre through Abiko-san. I decided the interviewer should be someone who understands both games and a mystery genre, so I sent Higurashi no Naku Koro ni to Watanabe-san at the end of last year and said, “It’s very interesting, so please think you’ve been tricked by me and give it a try!” Though, maybe Watanabe-san was pretty skeptical at first *laughs*
Watanabe: Well, when I actually played it, I stood and applauded in front of the screen! *laughs* I spent the beginning of the year playing Higurashi no Naku Koro ni. I was really impressed by the precise structure of the Watanagashi-hen and Meakashi-hen parts. Anyway, I’m looking forward to this conversation.
Ryukishi07: Glad to meet you.
Hunger to create
Watanabe: You are of the same generation as Kinoko Nasu, right?
Ryukishi07: Yes. The generation of Nintendo Famicom. When I was in elementary school, Famicom was all the rage, but my father hated video games, so we didn’t have one at home. The hunger for games that I felt back then definitely connects to today *laughs*
Watanabe: That’s deep *laughs*
Ryukishi07: On the other hand, for some reason, we had a computer. It was the era of NEC PC-8001 [*2], and I used to play by typing in game programs written in BASIC that appeared in BEMAGA [*3]. It was a completely self-sufficient world. So, I could only play very simple games at home that were not even close to Space Invaders or Breakout, but since I knew the source of the program, I could freely modify the parts I didn’t like. “Let’s change the shape of the UFO to something weird”, for example *laughs* In a sense, the things I modified in my own way became my own creations, but when I showed them to my friends, no one wanted to play. Of course, the games released on Famicom were much more interesting. However, I was attached to the games that had aspects I had designed, and I was frustrated, wondering why they wouldn’t play the game I made. Since that time, I have had a strong desire to have others see my world.
Watanabe: In a sense, it’s an ideal start for a creator.
Ryukishi07: I wonder *bitter laugh* Later, around the time I entered junior high school, such a desire to have others see my world turned toward drawing manga. There was hardly anyone around me who could draw, and the so-called otaku culture of today did not exist at all. So, manga was just the right medium for me to have others see my worlds. After all, with manga, unlike games, anyone can casually look at it. But around the time I entered high school, people who were better at drawing than me started to emerge, and it discouraged me *bitter laugh* It was around that time, I guess, when the Comiket venue was moved from Harumi to Ariake [*4], that I took an interest in so-called “doujin activities”. However, I didn’t have my own circle yet, so I would go to other people’s circles and help them with coloring their illustrations. Sometimes I wrote scenarios for games, but they were quickly rejected by the higher-ups in the circle, and I ended up getting frustrated.
Watanabe: That was in high school, wasn’t it? What did you do after you got a job?
Ryukishi07: After graduating from high school, there was a gap in my doujin activities for a while. It was about five years ago that I created my current circle called 07th Expansion.
Watanabe: Why did you stop drawing manga?
Ryukishi07: It’s because I could no longer depict the four-dimensional world in my mind with my drawing skills. For example, if I tried to draw a scene like “A kaiju appears in the middle of Ginza!”, I couldn’t depict the streetscape of Ginza. I couldn’t draw what I wanted to draw. It was painful. In order to express myself, I had to adjust my ideas to a level that I could draw. But with writing, I can actually express myself. Though, with doujin, it is not so easy.
Watanabe: Why?
Ryukishi07: In doujin activities, unlike with manga or games, it’s hard to get others to pay attention to your writing. Even at Comiket, the area where the writing-related circles are located is called a “highway”.
— “Highway”? What does that mean?
Watanabe: People use it as a detour because other places are too crowded. Other times it was called “autobahn”, which is pretty mean.
— I see! *laughs* That’s indeed mean. However, I have heard that only six copies of the novel that served as the basis for Nasu’s Kara no Kyoukai were sold at Comiket, so the existence of such a derogatory term is understandable.
Ryukishi07: Back then, I thought there was no point in presenting my work unless others could see it. That’s why I chose the card game genre for my circle’s first production. At the time, a card game called Leaf Fight was very popular, and I decided to make original cards for it. It was considered that in doujin others would not take you seriously if you did not create so-called “secondary works”, and I was of the same mindset. But just at that moment, Tsukihime by TYPE-MOON, led by Takashi Takeuchi and Kinoko Nasu, became a huge hit as an original doujin work, and it opened the door to the new world of doujin activities.
— It was so exciting. Even people like me, who are on the outside of the doujin movement, could feel the enthusiasm.
Ryukishi07: *Nods* And while I was marveling at how amazing Tsukihime was, Yatazakura, a current 07th Expansion member, told me he was currently studying the novel game engine that it uses. He said, “It’s called ‘NScripter’ and it’s fun”. So, we decided to try to make a sound novel using that software. That was Higurashi no Naku Koro ni. The main part of the scenario is based on a piece I wrote called Hinamizawa Bus Stop when I tried to do a theater play.
Watanabe: I was just wondering, do you place the game system and the story together in your mind?
Ryukishi07: Whether it’s the system, the story, or the packaging of the game, all the elements are meant to express the world in my head. It all goes together.
Watanabe: That’s not surprising. It is what I think games are supposed to be. A game package is closed, isn’t it? Time and space stay still inside it, and as soon as the start button is pressed, time begins to move, and the story unfolds in response to the player’s choices. A game is essentially made up of a number of such systems, and I think the narrative structure of Higurashi is very much aware of this. In other words, “system=story”. Nowadays, everyone who makes games is struggling with the relationship between the two. They think that if they enhance the system, the narrative will become less important, or if they focus on the story, the game will become a movie instead of a game. Especially, major developers are struggling with this, and when they create an unusual number of flags [*5] in novel games, the fun of exhausting the choices is accepted in terms of gameplay, but it is no longer a “story” anymore. On the other hand, there are cases where a full CG movie in an RPG is made so long that it becomes a movie itself, as in the case of Final Fantasy.
Ryukishi07: It just so happened that Higurashi no Naku Koro ni took the form of a novel game. If Yatazakura had said, “I just bought a video camera, and it’s quite fun”, it might have become a movie. For me, the question what method to use was actually a minor one. Though, of course, I like games, so it’s easier for me to understand them.
Watanabe: For you, the most important thing is to express that “story=worldview”, and the novel game just happened to be the place to put that expression into?
Ryukishi07: Yes. We chose novel games because they are very graphical, even though the text is the main form of expression, and because it has music as the powerful direction tool. I am not very skillful with words, so I appreciate the musical support.
Watanabe: No, you are good *laugh* I think it is difficult to write this kind of text unless you have had some kind of writing training for a certain period of time. Have you used to write before?
Ryukishi07: Before Higurashi there was once novel game that was abandoned midway through the project, and I wrote the scenario for that. I wrote about five or six books worth of text for that game alone.
Watanabe: Why did that game project go down?
Ryukishi07: The illustrator left the circle in the middle of the production… I was so frustrated that after all the hard work I put into writing the scenario, I couldn’t get the game just because I didn’t have an artist to draw for it… That’s why I decided to draw for Higurashi myself.
Watanabe: So, the scenario of the game itself was completed?
Ryukishi07: More or less, yes.
Watanabe: I wish I could read it.
Ryukishi07: It’s a very generic story if you look at it now, and I’m too embarrassed to put it out *laughs*
Watanabe: Really? Please show me it someday *laughs* According to what Ota-san told me, you don’t read many books — which means that your writing is not directly influenced by novels, right? You purely have been playing novel games and after that wrote your own. So, do you have any other influences or things that have moved you? For example, do you like movies?
Ryukishi07: I watch movies a lot. Speaking of being moved, I was shocked when I saw Spielberg’s first film Duel. It is actually a TV movie. It was also completely unknown at the time of its debut. When I heard that even director Spielberg did not have a spectacular debut, I realized that there is no such thing as a genius who does not struggle. I think that episode has encouraged me a lot.
Watanabe: Anything else?
Ryukishi07: In terms of influencing Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, I would say Blair Witch Project. It had a strong influence on me in learning how to connect the inside and outside of a work to make it more exciting. Using TIPS to tell the outside story also comes from Blair Witch Project. The pamphlet was really well done, and it was like a TIPS section of that movie.
Ability to see the scary side of things
— Still, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni is scary, isn’t it? Where does that “fear” come from?
Ryukishi07: There are many scary things in the world, but I believe that in the end, everything comes down to “misunderstanding”. The play script that became the prototype for Higurashi, Hinamizawa Bus Stop, was about a single misunderstanding that led to unspeakable horror. Misunderstandings and mistakes are really scary. For example, suppose Ota-san was about to touch the doorknob with his right hand when he left this room, but suddenly he changed his mind and switched to the left hand. When I see that, I ask myself, “Is something bad going to happen to the doorknob of the reception room on the 26th floor of Kodansha if I touch it with my right hand?” *laughs* But Ota-san may have just noticed at the time that he actually had a small cut on his right hand. But I don’t know that, so I can only think of all sorts of things that could go wrong. Furthermore, let’s say that I tell this story to someone else. If I were to tell someone else about it, and the idea that “the doorknob of the reception room on the 26th floor of Kodansha is kinda dangerous” will come back to me after circulating in the world, then for me it would become even more credible.
Watanabe: Even if you were the one who started it *laughs*
Ryukishi07: But it isn’t clear to the person who starts it, is it? There are a lot of such things happening in Higurashi no Naku Koro ni.
Watanabe: Do you easily get scared?
Ryukishi07: It’s not so much that I get scared, but rather that I have the ability to perceive anything as scary *laugh*
Watanabe: What scares you the most?
Ryukishi07: It’s people. For example, if the other person’s response is delayed for a moment, I think to myself, “This person definitely had a reason to hesitate”. It’s probably nothing serious, but in those fleeting moments I feel the horror.
Watanabe: You are truly a horror-making machine *laughs* If you are like that, isn’t it also scary that, for example, everyone stand at the left side of the escalator?
Ryukishi07: It is scary. In Tokyo, people line up on the left side, but in Osaka on the right side. Imagine someone coming from Osaka stand on the right side as usual. So, they look back and forth and see that everyone is standing on the left. Feeling awkward, they look around, and the eyes of the people around seem to accuse them of something. They just don’t know the rule: “In Tokyo, when you ride an escalator, you should stand on the left side”. Moreover, this rule is not universal, it’s local. Still, the rules cannot be broken. And when rules are broken, there is a retaliation. Higurashi no Naku Koro ni depicts the horror of Hinamizawa as a village society, but that horror is very much a problem stemming from its local rules.
Watanabe: The problem of “assumptions”. Most people act only on their assumptions. They do not have a clear picture of the real world. For example, there is a cup of oolong tea in front of us now, but I am sure we would not notice it if it were barley tea.
— Speaking of which, I recently learned about a fraud case in Japan in which apple juice was sold under the name of cherry juice, but in reality, almost no one who drank the juice noticed the difference in taste until the accusation was made.
Watanabe: We all have a part of us that we shut out, our consciousness. That’s why we don’t even notice the horror… In your case, I’m sure your consciousness is constantly awake.
Ryukishi07: I don’t think it brings me any merits, though *laughs* I believe that people who are the complete opposite of me, who are always positive and think about things in a cheerful way, will surely have a better life. If you are my type and don’t train your mind, you may become a shut-in.
Watanabe: There is a part of us we can train to keep our mental state flat by keeping a simple view as much as possible in order to have a harmonious social life.
Ryukishi07: Yes. It is often said, “Be insensitive”. Life is easier if you don’t worry about little things. On the contrary, they say, “Many people who commit suicide are good people who are aware”. It’s probably bad for the mental health to try to always deal with things in your own head so as not to bother others.
What is really “scary”?
Ryukishi07: I often hear from people who have played Higurashi no Naku Koro ni that being chased by a girl with an axe is really scary, but I don’t think that is what where the real horror is. The horror that occurs in the village of Hinamizawa is not something that only exists in games. It is something that exists in the world around us. But I think that’s because of my poor writing skills, that many things aren’t getting through.
Watanabe: No, it comes across well enough. The world on the other side of reality becomes infinite by the closure of time and space. The current social structure of Japan is such that all Japanese people pretend to have forgotten and avoid looking at this infinite world, which is fun but actually very scary. This social structure of Japan is expressed in Higurashi no Naku Koro ni by integrating the closed space of the game and the closed space of Hinamizawa.
Ryukishi07: *Nods* Japan itself is closed. Japan today is a really scary place. Everyone lives by mutual intimidation. People live by nature by holding a knife to each other and never approaching each other within range of the blade, but somehow the Japanese have forgotten that they are holding knives. They think the world is not scary.
Watanabe: We usually see the not-scary side of life, but in fact, once you peel back the thin skin of that side, it becomes a terrifying world. In Higurashi no Naku Koro ni that world is sometimes revealed.
Ryukishi07: In the past, the community provided a time and place where we could be open with each other and forgive each other. For example, a drinking party is like that.
Watanabe: It seems that in village society, people were able to reset their relationships during the annual festival. Even if you had been cut off from your village, you had a chance to come back on the festival day.
Ryukishi07: Even if you did something that violated a taboo, for example, if you lost your temper with a neighbor and were punished for it, there was a mechanism in place that allowed you to be forgiven. Of course, most Japanese people consider losing one’s temper to be very embarrassing, so it doesn’t usually happen. Come to think of it, there was a time when manga with main characters who often lost their temper was popular. The background of “Japan, where people can’t lose their temper” was what made it interesting. But I think the younger generation today is influenced by such manga, and for them it is not taboo to lose their temper anymore. This is also scary.
A world of madness blended into everyday life
Watanabe: What was the first “scary” experience in your life that got you interested in horror?
Ryukishi07: When I was in elementary school, whenever I went to a friend’s house to play, I would always say, “Let’s play!”. That were the magic words, to which he would reply, “Okay!”. It was an absolute rule. However, one day he answered, “No way”. The routine was broken. I was so shocked that I stopped breathing and couldn’t move. At that moment, I really was terrified. The fear that something that was supposed to be routine would suddenly become something completely different. That was the first “horror” I felt in my life. I was becoming more and more isolated in the school community, partly because I didn’t have a Famicom, as I mentioned in the beginning. Because I didn’t have a single game cartridge, I always went to other kids’ homes to play. And I never brought a single cartridge with me. Once or twice, they would probably forgive me, but in my case, it was all the time, so one day they said, “No way”. After that, I was bullied at school for some time. That was also another reason for that, but the problem was that even the guys who didn’t know why I was being bullied started to be on the bullying side. People don’t want to be victims, so they desperately try to stay on the side of the bullies.
Watanabe: This is scary. The school is also a small closed village society just like Hinamizawa.
Ryukishi07: It is. There is no other community in the world as scary as school. During cleaning time, someone hit the girl who was cleaning together with me with a broom. And because I was nearby, she got angry and said, “You hit me!”, even though I didn’t do anything. When the teacher came in, a different girl said, “I saw him hitting her!”. That was all it took for the teacher to decide that I was the culprit and a liar. I was terrified. In the real world, we are more careful about trials, lawsuits, and other such things, but in the closed world of school, it is so easy to get a verdict. It is scary. If I get the chance, I would like to do a horror story set in an elementary school one day.
Watanabe: Such a closed space is scary, but whether it is in a school or a village deep in the mountains, as long as you only deal with the surface, you will be happy.
Ryukishi07: That’s true.
Watanabe: It is true not only for villages and schools but also for workplaces and among friends.
Ryukishi07: After all, the Japanese are a “culture of pretending not to see”.
Watanabe: Because we are an island nation, there is an assumption that as long as everyone knows the rules, everything will be alright.
Ryukishi07: For example, in the U.S., you can freely express your individuality, but in Japan, you always have to worry about bumping shoulders with others. But as long as you pay attention to that, you can live a normal lukewarm life.
Watanabe: In general, galge are mostly about that lukewarm time, aren’t they? It’s about enjoying those slow and lazy days where nothing happens. Higurashi no Naku Koro ni uses that galge format in a meta way. I think you are the most malicious and scary person for using it like this *laughs*
Ryukishi07: Galge are all about enjoying the joyful moments in life. Getting intimate with a girl is fun, even if it is in a virtual space *laughs*.
Watanabe: But that state is really a finite one. By confining it to the package of a game, it is turened into an endless loop. So, no matter what kind of person you are, once you are confined to that world, it’s unconditionally fun. However, when such a happy person learns that their happy time is in fact finite, they are in for a terrible shock.
Ryukishi07: That’s right. Japanese people today only know about good times. In the old days, because everyone was well aware of the terrible aspects that existed in the world, “a hedge between was keeping friendship green”. But the time of that friendship has lasted so long that the Japanese have forgotten the horror of it all. They have forgotten the reason for their complacency in the first place. They have come to believe that warmth is all there is in the world.
— What arises there is the horror of “misunderstanding” that you mentioned.
Ryukishi07: *Nods* For example, in galge, girls never speak ill of others to the protagonist, perhaps because they are just afraid of giving other rival girls a bad reputation. In To Heart [*6], the heroine, Akari Kamigishi, is attached to the hero, perhaps because she is guarding him from other girls. That situation is an absolute horror story! *laughs* However, in the game, that situation is depicted only from the protagonist’s perspective, so the protagonist feels showered with attention. I think To Heart is good, however, because its creators were aware of this and created the game deliberately. I don’t think that’s the case with more recent galge.
Watanabe: Just being alone in that lukewarm state. It is as if we are forcibly creating a time where nothing happens.
Ryukishi07: I think this is one of the reasons why Japan is becoming an American-style rights-oriented society. Everyone knows only that lukewarmness, so when push comes to shove, they try to hit first. This is also a horror story in a way.
Watanabe: I think it is necessary to show the darker side of life every once in a while. That is the role of media, but the Japanese media lacks it.
Ryukishi07: Young people today don’t know that part of life. When we remain ignorant of the truth in this way, we are too afraid of the madness of the world that sometimes shows through. That’s why they can’t cope well with changes in their surroundings and become shut-ins.
Watanabe: Up to now, we have been cheating through life so that everything is in that lukewarm state. However, because we’ve been doing it for too long, there is a widespread misconception that the lukewarmness will continue forever.
Ryukishi07: Nothing is eternal. That is why there is a part of us that is longing for it. Unless you are aware of the finite nature of life, you cannot understand the horror of society.
— Reality is an awfully scary place.
Ryukishi07: That’s right. The reason why everyone follows the rules is because if you break them, you will suffer terrible consequences. In the real world, you never know what will happen if you put off your mask.
Watanabe: A peaceful world like Japan today is a world of lies. It is basically impossible that there will be no wars and no one will starve to death for a long time to come.
Ryukishi07: Postwar Japan has been trying desperately to work hard and bring itself closer to an ideal, to peace, and it was definitely a success. But our mistake was that we were so filled up that we forgot that the world is really scary. Then, even if ten things were fulfilled, we would be extremely dissatisfied if only one thing was not fulfilled. In the past, knowing the terrible reality, we would be thankful for just one tenth of fulfillment. I don’t want us to become that kind of people who get mad just because we are not satisfied with something. One of the messages hidden in Higurashi no Naku Koro ni is that I want people to know the horror that exists in reality. Basically, it’s entertainment, but I’d be happy if you noticed the deeper message.
Watanabe: I have high hopes that Higurashi no Naku Koro ni will eventually be completed and that it will permeate all over Japan, so that many people can share the world of Ryukishi07’s mind. If it comes that far, I’m probably going to feel that horror even in my sleep *laughs* But that’s what it means to make people understand the world. The problem is that Japanese education today doesn’t move in that direction. In reality, we need to show not only the front but also the sides and back, the various aspects that make up the world in a three-dimensional way, but we teach only the ideal world on the front.
— And if everyone just follows, they will have a good life.
Watanabe: But that is an illusion. Not the truth.
Ryukishi07: Adults have struggled to create the world we live in today, so they wanted to raise their children in an ideal way. But from the perspective of a child raised only in ideals, that is just the norm.
— The first half of the Onikakushi-hen of Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, in which a slow everyday life goes on and on, is, to put it blantly, extremely boring and mild *laughs* But I don’t think the second half after the night of Watanagashi would be that scary without a solid construction of that mild everyday life. There is a movie I like called The Deer Hunter directed by Michael Cimino, a Vietnam War movie starring Robert De Niro and Christopher Walken, and the structure of Higurashi no Naku Koro ni is very similar to that movie. The film is about a group of men from a small town in rural America who are about to go off to fight in the Vietnam War, and the first hour of the film is spent showing the scene of one of the men’s wedding party. Frankly, it’s boring to sit through an hour of rural American daily life when you’re watching a movie about the Vietnam War *laughs* You watch and think, “Forget about that, just show us the war scene!”. But just as I was thinking that, the scene suddenly switches to the extreme conditions of the war zone, where De Niro and his friends are taken prisoner by the Vietcong in enemy territory in Vietnam and forced to play Russian roulette with each other for their gambling. That switch is done very well. It’s like the structure of Higurashi no Naku Koro ni — if you don’t build up the slow everyday scenes in the first half, you can’t successfully depict the crazy world of the second half.
Ryukishi07: I can understand that very well. Stephen King has said something like, “If I were making a family drama, it would be a regular family drama except for the last episode”. I sympathize with that a lot. However, I don’t think it’s that easy to do in practice, because unless you are a master like King, there must be cases where the show is cut down midway through the broadcast *laughs* With Higurashi no Naku Koro ni as well, I had a lot of trouble finding the right timing for the transition between the everyday life and the extraordinary situation.
Watanabe: That part is really well calculated. Moreover, the first half of the game is well done so that galge fans will be pleased.
— That is the bottomless malice of Ryukishi07 *laughs* Everyone gets knocked out by it.
Ryukishi07: Just the very opening part is made intense to grasp the audience’s attention, but the first half of the game consists only of a leisurely time. Then, in the latter half, the moment when the story is turned upside down becomes its best part. I really wanted to make the CD jacket look like a galge *laughs*
Watanabe: Why not make a fake jacket? Maybe even put a heart mark on it, something like Higurashi no Naku Koro ni ♡ *laughs*
A four-dimensional world in his head
Watanabe: When you go through Meakashi-hen of Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, it’s surprising how precise it responds to Watanagashi-hen. I don’t think you can create something like this unless you have the multifaceted world of the story completely in your mind, including the settings of individual characters, the map, and the timeline.
Ryukishi07: Indeed, there is such a thing. The story of Higurashi no Naku Koro ni was not created from the beginning to the end. I started with the setting and history of Hinamizawa. Once that was done, I then created the characters or pieces. Then, I gave each character a purpose. Each character should move around the setting, Hinamizawa, according to their own goals. This is actually a TRPG [*7] style of story construction. The characters are all NPCs [*8] and move on their own according to their own victory conditions. And, in the world in which the characters move autonomously in such a way, if we follow the viewpoint of the main character, Keiichi Maebara, it becomes the first arc, Onikakushi. But in reality, various characters are moving freely in places that Keiichi cannot see. Keiichi can only see the results, so it appears to him those strange things are happening one after another. That is the trick behind Onikakushi-hen. Next, I rewind time to the initial stage of the game and slightly move the position of the pieces. This time it becomes Watanagashi-hen. Like that, you don’t change any of the rules at all, but by changing the characters’ starting position, it becomes a completely different story. The three scenarios in Higurashi no Naku Koro ni differ only slightly in the placement of the character pieces at the starting point.
Watanabe: So, you are saying there are some universal rules.
Ryukishi07: Yes. Actually, I don’t want you to guess who is the culprit; I want you to figure out what the rules of this story are. I want everyone to find the maximum common denominator of the setting and the behind-the-scenes tricks for each scenario. If you could figure it out, you could create a new scenario for Higurashi no Naku Koro ni by yourself.
Watanabe: This may sound like talking about life, not a game, but there is an ultimate proposition in physics: “Can the theory that makes up the universe be expressed in a single line of equations?” Physicists say that if we can figure it out, we should be able to reconstruct the universe itself. It is similar to what you’ve just said, isn’t it? You create a mathematical three-dimensional board in your mind and give parameters and vectors to the pieces standing on that board. You can’t put these things down on paper, can you?
Ryukishi07: I can’t. It’s just like you said. It is all in my head, but I am not able to put it into writing. I am often asked in interviews if I have any paper materials, but there are so few. I only had notes to help me remember some things, like Rena repeating “ka na, ka na?” twice *laughs*
Watanabe: That is amazing. It is not easy to draw a solid structure in your mind, moreover not a static one. A solid structure is in three dimensions, right? Add to that the flow of time, and you get four dimensions. That four-dimensional world exists in Ryukishi07’s head, in its complete form. That is why you are able to write various types of stories, such as Watanagashi-hen and Meakashi-hen, which are based on the same time frame but from different perspectives.
Ryukishi07: It’s only now that Watanabe-san pointed it out to me that I realized it myself, but it’s definitely in my head. Something hazy…
Watanabe: It’s probably something like a four-dimensional space, floating and isolated in the air.
Ryukishi07: Yes, it is something that cannot be put into words. You can’t communicate that to people in its four-dimensional form, so you just pull out a part of it and express it by rearranging it into three dimensions.
Watanabe: The “trick of misunderstanding” mentioned earlier comes into play when you have to convert the story into a linear, straight, three-dimensional one. The truth is multifaceted, but because we see only one aspect of it, the horror is born.
Ryukishi07: I really want to make a complete work in this four-dimensional space in my head. But if it remains there, it will be invisible to others, so it needs to become three-dimensional, turned into a scenario and be directed. But I’m not a good writer, so sometimes I wonder if the real horror I intended to portray is properly conveyed to others.
Watanabe: No, that energy you’ve achieved isn’t something to mess with. I think that Ota-san, as an editor at Kodansha, will seriously consider the debut of the novelist Ryukishi07. But it is important to find a way to express on paper the manifestation of your unique talents, such as the rows of text on the screen in Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, which itself feels frightening. I think it will be a step ahead of the multi-font attempt in Faust.
Ryukishi07: My texts are very light, though.
Watanabe: That’s why they are good.
Ryukishi07: Thank you. But because they are so light, I think it has the power to appeal to those mistakenly believe it is safe and lukewarm. Maybe, in that sense, it’s a conscious choice from my side.
Watanabe: I find your texts extremely consciously made.
Ryukishi07: I don’t want young people today to think that they can’t create because they can’t write beautiful words. Watanabe-san said earlier something that fit my thoughts perfectly: the most important thing is the four-dimensional space in your head. This space is your creation in the true sense of the word. However, since it cannot be expressed as is, it must be reduced to some kind of three-dimensional medium. I don’t think that the original 4D work is inferior just because the technique at the time of that reducing is inferior.
Watanabe: Exactly! There is no doubt that 4D space, or the artist’s passion, is the most important thing. However, since major game makers cannot control what is inside the individual’s mind, they have no choice but to focus on the rest of the work. It can’t be helped. They have no choice but to work with what kind of system to program, how to do sales and marketing, and so on. But the unfortunate thing is that it is the only one that runs on its own. They were so focused on how complicated the story branching should be and what kind of sales promotion campaign to launch, and when they realized it, there weren’t left many people with 4D space in their heads among the developers.
Ryukishi07: The skill of game creation has been replaced with how well it is transferred into the three dimensions. As a result, a company that makes good games is a company with technical capabilities, and although the real work is supposed to be a 4D world in an individual’s head, for some reason it is mistaken as if the technology to convert it into 3D is the essence of game creation. The original is more important. Normally, readers with good sense would just read into the 4D part without permission. It’s what called “reading between the lines”. I’m sure there are works about which you can say, “This person is not good at writing, but what he writes is amazing”.
Watanabe: If the work has passion, if it has a hundred of other works as a foundation, the reader will definitely notice it.
Ryukishi07: Nowadays, if you go to a game shop in Akihabara, you’ll see it right away, but the points of evaluating games tend to go to the number of CGs they contain, the use of famous illustrators, and so on.
Watanabe: Whether there are many patterns of sprites or how long the videos are is a matter of the maker’s own circumstances, or more specifically, the mobility of the company. That’s the only thing that is being appreciated.
Ryukishi07: That’s right. Many people have only been refining the method of making a 4D world into 3D. And those who had their own 4D world had to join some large company in order to make that world 3D. The only thing I can be proud of is that I was able to directly challenge the reader with my 4D world without thinking only about refining the 3D.
Watanabe: I feel that this is thanks to your style. It’s like it’s written in blood. It proves that you can work without having to train by copying others or rely on a system to do someone else’s work. As you said, young people today are focusing only on how to learn the technology rather than how to create beautiful 4D worlds. They tend to go to join a game school or a big company, but that’s not everything.
Ryukishi07: The technology of converting what’s inside your head to 3D is just “multiplication”. But that’s right! The starting point is more important. Certainly, I think that a large company that has the structure and funds to bring the conversion rate close to 100% is a great company. However, if the original 4D part is not good, it will be a useless work no matter how high the conversion rate is. I would like the reader to read my works and think, “This is originally a 100% work, but the art is bad, so only 10% conveyed”. It’s like I’m desperately trying to make excuses for the lack of strength in my work *laughs*
— With the introduction of IT, a new environment for creators is rapidly being built.
Ryukishi07: People often say, “it’s amazing that Ryukishi07 can do so many things by himself,” but that’s not true. If I was only thinking about how to convey my 4D world as it is, I had to do various things on my own. It’s the opposite to say that we are in an era without the spirit of frontier or an era without dreams. There has never been a time as full of opportunities as it is now. In order to make something like Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, you only need one computer of moderate performance, and you can easily get that computer for enough money to earn a little part-time job. All that’s left is the courage to not spend all that money on pachinko and cigarettes *laughs*
Watanabe: If you do it seriously, you can build that minimum environment in a month with a part-time job.
Ryukishi07: Yes, and as long as you have the environment, you can do it alone. Of course, my work also has its amateurish parts. From a industry point of view, it may full of things that people say, “it can be forgiven because it’s a doujin work” about, but I think it’s still significant that one person can do most of the creative work. Moreover, nowadays, things made in doujin can reach the world to some extent. For example, printing CD jackets used to be tough because we didn’t have the know-how. But now there is even a printing company specializing in doujin works, and if this is your first time, they will kindly teach you in detail. In terms of distribution, the number of stores that sell doujin works has increased, mainly in Akihabara, there is mail order, and recipients can easily obtain information about works through the Internet. It’s a really good environment.
Watanabe: Moreover, if done badly, doujin works sell better than those made by companies *laughs* In today’s Japan game world, we are in a sad situation where we have to work hard to find a job, join a company with a name, listen to what our boss says for more than ten years, work even harder, and finally release the game we made to the major distribution and look how it sells only a few tens of thousands of copies and still is at the top of the charts.
Ryukishi07: It’s a really good time to do it alone. If you can’t do it because you don’t have time, or find some other excuse for not doing it, I want you to try, just a little bit. It can be just two hours before going to bed. Even if you go to work at 9 a.m., you should be free from 12 to 2 a.m. At that time, you can go to your computer and open your development soft, whether it’s Microsoft Word or Adobe Photoshop. Higurashi no Naku Koro ni was born in that time interval.
— When I was listening to your story, it was interesting to think that the design philosophy of Higurashi no Naku Koro ni and Faust are basically the same. They are like siblings. After all, I wrote in the proposal for Faust that “future manufacturing will succeed not because of large number of people and large capital, but because of small number of people and small capital”.
Watanabe: That’s true. I, too, think that Faust and Higurashi no Naku Koro ni are extremely similar. This may be why the literary magazine Faust decided to write about such different genre.
Expressing yourself in a doujin
Ryukishi07: Even if you don’t know how to do doujin activities, you can now easily look up the know-how on the Internet. In the past, there was no such information, so we had to find it ourselves. For example, for TYPE-MOON of Tsukihime, there is a slight time lag between the release of Tsukihime and their breakout. I think that time was the hardship that Takeuchi-san and Nasu-san went through, and thanks to their hard work a new path for us today was created. At least, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni has walked on the rails laid by TYPE-MOON. If the order had been reversed, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni would not have gone that smoothly. There is definitely a big trend in the doujin activity scene, and first of all, Watanabe Seisakujo (now French-Bread) showed that in the world of action games, even doujin works can be as amazing as pro ones. Next is TYPE-MOON’s Tsukihime. It paved the way for not secondary creations, but for original doujin works. Higurashi no Naku Koro ni is going on the rails that were already laid others, but we have also brought in some new things… For example, that it’s okay to be bad at drawing *laughs* Also, it may be the first time that it is not necessary for a work to be 18+. In the past, novel games had to be 18+ to be able to compete.
Watanabe: Even Tsukihime couldn’t escape that path.
Ryukishi07: TYPE-MOON has turned pro now, but I sometimes wonder if they had stayed in doujin, perhaps there would not have been any 18+ scenes in Fate/stay night. I should ask Nasu-san about this *laughs*
Watanabe: The original purpose of eroge was to show erotic scenes, but now the main thing is the narrative or the unique sensibility of moe. In a way, it hijacked novel games.
Ryukishi07: Games like AIR [*9] are like this.
Watanabe: Also, novel games are text-based, but because they are games, there have to be branches in the story. Chunsoft worked hard on branching in their Kamaitachi no Yoru and Machi. But Higurashi no Naku Koro ni intentionally eliminates branching altogether, but still, or rather, that’s why it’s interesting. This is also why it took over the main building, which is literature. Higurashi no Naku Koro ni is a work that is a symbolic of these two reversal phenomena.
Ryukishi07: I didn’t do it for the sake of it, it just turned out this way.
— Are you thinking about adding choices for your next works?
Ryukishi07: There is a possibility that it can be introduced as a gimmick to enhance the narrative. But I don’t want to do it if it’s just a simple “branching” in a game that doesn’t need it. At first, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni was criticized a lot for it. “It’s an interesting work, but I wish there would be choices to make”. It seems that if you don’t have choices, it looks unfinished. There were also comments like, “The finished version will have choices, right?”. Many people thought that it was more fatal than the absence of the 18+ scenes *laughs* But if you think about choices in terms of gameplay, the essence of it is to decide the merits and drawbacks of your choices. They are testing the player. Which is correct? Ah, unfortunately, this was the right answer. But this is not a “choice” in the true sense of the word. It’s just a game. It’s exactly like an action game. True choices are meaningless unless the concept of right or wrong answers is diminished. In Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, there is only one choice in TIPS [*10], it’s about a red box and a blue box, and no matter which one you choose, you will come out with something, and in the end, there is no right or wrong answer, but at best, that’s about it. But actually, in Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, the protagonist Keiichi Maebara should have passed through a lot of choices. He tends to run alone, but in his mind, he’s always trying to choose the best option. Tatarigoroshi-hen is easy to understand. When it comes to “how to save Satoko” you definitely have choices in a normal novel game. It’s like, “1. I have to kill my uncle / 2. I’ll think about it a little more / 3. I need to talk to someone”. But you don’t have to put options in there and slow down the speed of the story. Human thinking is something that rushes through.
Watanabe: It’s hard to do that. Your writing has enough power to make the reader empathize with the “protagonist who runs through the options”. I was holding my breath as I was reading.
— When you’re playing Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, your breathing becomes shallow *laughs*
Watanabe: Something like the speed of the flow of the story brings out the fourth-dimensional world from Ryukishi07’s mind. It’s usually difficult to maintain such tension.
Ryukishi07: Maybe that’s why there are so many typos *laughs* For the time being, I’m just typing on the keyboard with feeling. I imagine myself as Keiichi-kun, and I have a headache and adrenaline rush. So, Keiichi’s actions are, in a sense, very “Ryukishi07-like”.
Watanabe: If it was a typical game, there would be choices in that scene. “Would you kill or not? If you chose to kill, that means that you felt that way, right?”. It would try to substitute emotions with the system mechanics. Furthermore, this is something that we’ve been talking about with Ota-san, but Higurashi no Naku Koro ni is very new in that it creates a game outside the game by eliminating choices. On the Internet, various people are thinking and making theories. Including such side products, it is a game called Higurashi no Naku Koro ni. Is this hindsight or an extension of passion?
Ryukishi07: Of course, I’m making a “story without answers”, so it’s sad if it ends with just “I didn’t understand”. It’s not just about who the culprit is, I want you to think about many different things.
Watanabe: I love Chunsoft games, but whether it’s Kamaitachi no Yoru or something else, it’s rare for a topic to get a lot of buzz outside of the game. Going through choices one by one makes you great as gamer. It’s not a game to unravel the structure of a game, but a game to move your hands. In the case of Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, it’s more important to move your thoughts, not your hands.
Ryukishi07: That’s right. I wanted everyone to work with their heads, so I included the All-Cast Review Sessions where the characters encourage reasoning. If you just play a game and finish it normally, I don’t think I can fully convey the fourth-dimensional world that I have in my mind. You enjoy it for the first time for real only after you think a little bit.
— At that moment, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni truly changed from a “novel” to a “game”. As a result of denying the already existing gameplay of other games, it has acquired infinite gameplay that develops between humans. In that sense, we are lucky that it has come out in this era where blogs and bulletin boards are developing on the Internet. After all, there is a limit to how much you can think and get excited just by yourself.
Ryukishi07: It’s really important to be able to have discussions online, isn’t it? No matter where you live, if you have Internet connection, you can talk about Higurashi no Naku Koro ni.
— It is also what it means to “do literature.” A work that becomes classic always has good criticism outside of it, and the history of literature is driven by the overwriting of new works and criticisms based on other works and criticism. Right now, you are releasing a new chapter of Higurashi no Naku Koro ni once every six months, and players are having heated discussions on the Internet, which means that on a simple level they are walking exactly the same path as the one that literary history has been going.
Watanabe: Based on what I see on the Internet, everyone reads it quite thoroughly, and sometimes they come up with amazing ideas that I can’t think of.
Ryukishi07: Even I sometimes see interesting theories that make me wonder if I can write a new scenario with this *laughs*
Watanabe: I’ve been wrestling with this idea a little bit, but I don’t think professional critics are actually necessary for Higurashi no Naku Koro ni. As for its merits, Onikakushi-hen is available for free on the Internet, so if you just play it, you will see yourself, and you also can see how exciting it is by looking at the discussions on the forums. Even if a critic says so and so, it’s not welcome at all *laughs*
— Higurashi no Naku Koro ni gave birth to a new concept. This is an invention. As long as it is certain that the situation on which all existing systems are based will change, they will inevitably hit plateau at some point. I think Higurashi no Naku Koro ni is the first game to respond to the new situation of the expansion of computer networks and that decided to deny the conventional computer games by completely eliminating choices, and as a result, it acquired infinite gameplay that unfolds between humans. This is Columbus’ egg.
Watanabe: The job of major developers is to improve the quality of computer games through the collective work of many people, so in a sense, the stagnation was unavoidable. That’s why it’s meaningful that you started out as an indie.
Ryukishi07: I think Higurashi no Naku Koro ni is similar to Neon Genesis Evangelion. At that time, we were desperately discussing things like “What is the Marduk Institute” and “What’s the whole deal with the Human Instrumentality Project” and that was fun.
— In other words, that was also a form of literature.
Ryukishi07: However, even with games other than Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, you can enjoy it in that way. When I was playing Kanon, I was thinking about it in a Higurashi no Naku Koro ni way. So, by playing Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, I want everyone to know that there are such kinds of ways to have fun. The All-Cast Review Sessions are a presentation in that sense, even if a bit forceful.
Watanabe: I think the All-Cast Review Sessions are important not only for that, but also for restoring the players’ peace of mind *laughs* If it weren’t for that, I would be devastated and not feel like coming back to reality.
Ryukishi07: I think they are also good for giving the characters some space. In Kizuato, there was an extra scenario after you finish the game, wasn’t it? Because of that, I knew Chizuru was a hypocrite *laughs* That kind of information also increases the appeal of the characters.
— There was no an All-Cast Review Session in Meakashi-hen, wasn’t it?
Ryukishi07: I thought it would be better not to have it there because of the atmosphere. I wanted to cherish the aftertaste. Though, I could have put it on as a sprite presentation.
— Speaking of sprites, there was a gimmick at the end.
Watanabe: Eh, what’s about that?
Ryukishi07: In fact, there are two more TIPS that become available at the very end. You can’t see it unless you go there again after the game is completed.
— A certain stunning character gets a sprite.
Watanabe: I didn’t know about that. Don’t tell me anything!
Ryukishi07: Nobody notices that *laughs*
— Anyway, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni will continue to bring us joy for three more chapters.
Watanabe: Do you keep up with the pace of releasing once every half a year?
Ryukishi07: I thought about increasing the pace at least once, but I don’t think I can make a good product if I don’t have some space, so I decided to continue with that release schedule. I will work hard for another year and a half.
Watanabe: Please do your best. I’m also looking forward to the new work that will appear in Faust in the near future.
— You are welcome to write as many pages as you want.
Ryukishi07: Well, I don’t really worry about the number of pages when I’m wokring. I may be a bit of a dangerous writer *laughs*
— This type of dangerous writers is what we want here in “Faust”. Thank you both for your time today.
(January 2005, Kodansha 26th floor reception room)
[*1] Kamaitachi no Yoru
A sound novel released by Chunsoft in 94. Following on from Otogirisou (92), it has created a new form of game called sound novel. The scenario is by Abiko Takemaru. Including Machi (98), it is sometimes called the sound novel trilogy.
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[*2] PC-8001
A personal computer released in 79. The recording medium was cassette tapes, not floppy discs.
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[*3] Bemaga
Microcomputer BASIC Magazine, an introductory programming magazine launched by Denpa Shimbun in 82. Various programs were posted, mainly BASIC, which is the simplest programming language, and it was possible to run the software by actually typing it into a computer. Discontinued in 3.
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[*4] Moved from Harumi to Ariake
Comiket has relocated with the opening of Tokyo Big Sight in Ariake in 96.
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[*5] Flag
Information about which option you chose, or the choice itself. Recorded in memory or saved data, and the scenario branches according to the flags.
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[*6] To Heart
A visual novel released by Leaf in 97 as a third part in a trilogy together with Shizuku and Kizuato (both in 96). It combined the sound novel techniques with galge and had a great influence on later games. While the previous two games were horror, To Heart specialized in romance and created the format for subsequent galge.
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[*7] TRPG
Stands for “tabletop role-playing game”. A game that unfolds based on a conversation between the game master and several players and the roll of the dice. The roles of game master and the dice have been moved to computers which created the RPGs of today.
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[*8] NPC
Stands for “non-player character”. A character that the player cannot control freely.
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[*9] AIR
A visual novel published in *1 by Key. Following 99’s Kanon, “crying” is brought to the fore and determines the change of direction of galge. One of its characteristics is that the 18+ version and the all-ages version were released almost at the same time.
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[*10] Only one choice
TIPS for Meakashi-hen, “Box Picking Game”.
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Rena-Rena Toshokan 