[source: https://kai-you.net/article/29050 ]
What‘s the secret of making interesting mystery games? A talk between two famous creators, Kotaro Uchikoshi and Ryukishi07
On Thursday, June 30, Spike Chunsoft will release the extreme escape adventure game ZERO ESCAPE: Zero Time Dilemma (PlayStation Vita/Nintendo 3DS/PC).
This is the latest and last work in the Zero Escape series, which follows Zero Escape: 9 Hours, 9 Persons, 9 Doors and Zero Escape: Virtue’s Last Reward. The director and scenario writer for the series is Kotaro Uchikoshi. In the past, he produced masterpiece bishojo games such as Ever17 -the out of infinity- and Remember11 -the age of infinity-, and in recent years, he planned and wrote the script for anime and game Punch Line.
His games are particularly famous for mechanics and presentation that incorporate mystery elements while taking advantage of the special characteristics of adventure games.
To commemorate the release of Kotaro Uchikoshi’s new work, ZERO ESCAPE: Zero Time Dilemma, we are pleased to present this interview.
The conversation will be held with Ryukishi07, creator of mystery-based sound novel games such as Higurashi no Naku Koro ni and Umineko no Naku Koro ni.
In fact, they are both the same age, born in November 1973 (and their birthdays are just two days apart!).
Uchikoshi works on commercial games, while Ryukishi07 mainly works on doujin games, not only planning them, but also writing scenarios. Nevertheless, although they are both game creators, their views on making games are diametrically opposed.
The theme of the dialogue between these two is “mystery“.
They talk about their history with mystery genre and what they think about creating mystery games and writing scenarios.
SF mysteries and mysteries pretending to be galge
━ First of all, what was the first mystery you two encountered?
Uchikoshi: When I was in junior high school, I read a lot of the Mikeneko Holmes series (by Jiro Akagawa). At the time, I also saw a two-hour drama of Mikeneko Holmes (1979-1984) and thought it was fun.
Ryukishi07: I read The Fiend with Twenty Faces series (by Edogawa Rampo), which I found in my school library when I was in elementary school. I had only vaguely followed the story, and when I saw the exploits of Kobayashi and Detective Akechi, I thought, “Oh, that’s awesome!”. Maybe I haven’t read them as “mysteries”, though.
— I believe that your generation belongs to the so-called “shin honkaku” movement, which started when many famous mystery writers such as Norizuki Rintaro and Alice Arisugawa appeared in the mystery world. Were you originally exposed to this kind of mystery culture?
Uchikoshi: In my case, since I started working in the game industry, Never7 and ever17 (which I worked on) and science fiction mystery-like galge (a popular term for mainly male-oriented bishojo games) were very popular.
I also read books that were considered interesting among shin honkaku fans such as those by Yukito Ayatsuji and Ryusui Seiryoin. Of course, I like mysteries, but I enjoyed them as one of the various genres of stories, rather than diving deep and reading all of them.
Ryukishi07: I wish I have continued after The Boy Detective Club series and became a bookworm too… *bitter laugh* I entered the world of the TRPG Dungeons & Dragons thanks to The Record of Lodoss Wars and it was the Super Nintendo game Kamaitachi no Yoru (1994) that brought me back to mysteries. I first got hooked with Otogirisou (1992), the previous title in Chunsoft’s Sound Novel series, and these two games are my two main entrances into sound novels.
Because of that, I had the assumption that sound novels had to be horror, suspense and mysteries. I had no idea that sound novels would develop into romance games later… *laughs*
When I tried to write Higurashi no Naku Koro ni (2002-2006), it was the heyday of romance games, and everyone called sound novels galge. So, for Higurashi I was aiming for it to be a horror that pretended to be a galge, but turned out to be a mystery with people being murdered. In the end, I couldn’t pull it off because my drawing skills weren’t good enough *laughs*
— Both of you are working in a “mystery x game” genre, but are there anything that can only be expressed through games?
Uchikoshi: There is a lot of such things, but with the exception of novels, there is no other medium that can express the first-person point of view. Only adventure games can use visuals and music and give you the first-person point of view with the protagonist on this side and the characters on the other.
Ryukishi07: To be more specific, tricks such as “the main character’s face is different from the face the player knows” can only be expressed in a game. For example, in manga, the scene would look unnatural unless you draw it from a bird’s-eye view.
I wanted to express myself, so I took on various challenges and ended up with sound novel games like Higurashi. The appeal of sound novels is that they have as much text as novels, but can be read with the feel of manga, while the background music, which is not found in manga and novels, adds a cinematic effect. I think that it is genre that combines the best of various media and emotional devices and is very well suited for mystery.
Do as you please? Differences between commercial and doujin game making
— You mentioned tricks. When you create a mystery, do you start with a trick?
Ryukishi07: In my case, “an interesting picture I want to show” comes first.
For example, two close people suddenly start yelling “You’re the murderer!” and stabbing each other. The next step is to ask, “What are the tricks and methods by which this picture is formed?”. It doesn’t matter how wonderful the stage set-up and tricks are, if the picture made with their help is not interesting.
Just like the arrangement of food, one of the most exciting aspects of a mystery is “how puzzling and incomprehensible a picture is when you step into a crime scene”. Like in Kouske Kindaichi series, the first time you see a dead body, you should think, “What the hell is this?!”. I want to achieve that impact first, so for me tricks only come after that.
Uchikoshi: In my case, it depends on the work, but rather than thinking about the trick, first I need to know things like “what’s our budget?”. When I was working on Zero Escape: 9 Hours, 9 Persons, 9 Doors (2009), the Ace Attorney and Professor Layton series were popular, so I would try to incorporate “escape games,” which others had not yet done in Nintendo DS adventure games… In other words, I would start from a very realistic point of finding a way to get the project through.
After the project is approved, I add to it things that I personally want to do and come up with the biggest plot twist or trick of the plot first. However, exactly as Ryukishi-san said, if I come up with something in the middle of the story that would make it more interesting picture-wise, I am tempted to change the plot. If that would ruin the original plot, I may have to throw that part out altogether, and the original form would be almost completely lost *laughs*
— Ryukishi-san, do you have situations when you have to abandon established plot in favor of the picture you want to show?
Ryukishi07: In my case, rather than throwing away, I make it bigger. Let’s say I’ve came up with a very interesting trick and created a very impactful situation.
A lot of times I think, “If I use that trick, I can create a number of interesting scenes”. In a normal novel, once a trick is used, it must be discarded even if you still have other ideas about it. But in Umineko no Naku Koro ni I was able to depict an incident where “the trick is the same, but the way it’s presented is always different“, and it was a lot of fun *laughs* For me, a trick is like a kaleidoscope, and it’s exciting to see how it changes its shape every time I look on it.
Mystery is just another form of entertainment
— Earlier, we talked about “the picture you want to show” and “the ease with which the project can be executed”… In other words, “popular trends”. Do you keep in mind for your readers and players during the production?
Ryukishi07: Hmmm… As for myself, I work as a hobbyist in the doujin scene. Since I create my works individually, there are no planning meetings to begin with, and I can go ahead with whatever I want and don’t have to worry about the budget.
So, when I decided to go in the opposite direction of “sound novels = galge” notion in Higurashi and made it a game about murders, it reflected my antipathy toward the world and my feeling of “If it were me, I would do it this way!”.
When I ask my fans, “What would you like to see next?” they always say, “Please write about whatever you like”. So, I don’t read the room and just write about whatever I want *laughs*
Uchikoshi: That is allowed because you are talented. I have to start by listening to the client. I research what they are looking for and what games are popular right now.
The recent anime and game Punch Line (anime: 2015, game: 2016) was planned with the user in mind. I thought, “Everyone in the world likes panties”.
— *Everyone laughs*
Ryukishi07: When I saw Punch Line at a local game store, I thought, “It’s “punch line” plus “panchira” (panty shot), what a good pun!”. And the catchphrase “If you see panties, humanity is screwed!?” is the craziest thing I’ve ever heard *laughs*. But when I learned that it was written by the same Uchikoshi-sensei who wrote the Zero Escape series, I was horrified. I thought, “This man is something else” *laughs*.
— Indeed, it seems that the range of your (Uchikoshi’s) works is very huge.
Uchikoshi: I am a very unpopular author, so I felt that Punch Line was a turning point in my career for the masses, and I wanted to give it my best shot. However, in fact, 60-70% of men prefer boobs to asses *laughs* I am more of an “ass man”, so that was a bit of a failure for me. Because of things like this, I think it’s time to stop trying to fit in with everyone else.
Ryukishi07: When I learned that you wrote the scenario for Punch Line, I felt that it was your claim that you don’t want to be confined to the narrow box of “mystery writer”.
I don’t write my works with the idea that they are mysteries, but rather as a way of presenting a wide range of entertainment. I am also a big fan of that parts where the girls are just having fun, or where the main character is peeking in on them changing clothes. I have never thought of myself as a mystery writer. I just like the way of presentation that is called mystery.
Uchikoshi: That’s as you say. I want to write about many different things, and I also feel that I can write about them.
Although nobody directly says that, I somehow feel that, for example, works like Ever17 are implicitly demanded. So, I took on the challenge of writing Punch Line saying, “I can write works in other styles as well”. However, the viewers of the anime said, “Since Uchikoshi is doing this, there must be some big trick hidden in there. Everything is foreshadowing!” …Thought that’s not true at all *bitter laugh*
Ryukishi07: Something like, “When there’s going to appear a brutally murdered body so they could check the pattern on the panties!” *laughs*
Different ways to enjoy mysteries and the problem of difficulty
— When it comes to consumer games with puzzles, such as the Zero Escape series, do you consider that the puzzles must be solvable by the majority of people who play the game?
Uchikoshi: I do. I recently had a conversation with Takao Kato of SCRAP, the company that produces the Real Escape Games, and he told me that the most important thing is to frustrate the participants in such a way that they feel good so that they will try again, even if they do not solve the mystery.
But that is not the case with consumer games. In the Zero Escape series, we are careful to make sure that everyone can solve the puzzles, but the difficulty level of the escape part, which we call the “Quest Part” in ZERO ESCAPE: Zero Time Dilemma, varies from person to person. Some people say it was easier than the previous one, while others say it was more difficult, so it’s not an easy question.
— In previous Zero Escape games, there were step-by-step hints, so the difficulty level was presented according to the player. Ryukishi-san, how did you feel when you played Zero Escape: 9 Hours, 9 Persons, 9 Doors and Zero Escape: Virtue’s Last Reward?
Ryukishi07: I have always loved room escape games, starting with CRIMSON ROOM (2004), so I enjoyed it very much.
The reason why the level of difficulty varies from person to person is that there are two reasons we enjoy mysteries: “the sense of accomplishment when you solve it” and “the exhilaration of the eureka moment when you hear the answer even if you can’t solve it yourself”. So different people have different expectations.
People who want to “solve the mystery” resent the fact that the protagonists give them hints. They say, “Don’t give me hints!”.
If a puzzle can be solved by anyone, you cannot be proud of yourself for solving it. In short, they feel frustrated if there is no that sense of accomplishment, just like when you finish an action game on a Very Hard mode. The latter, on the other hand, are not really interested in solving the mystery themselves. They are the ones who click on the points they see as hinted and proceed, and are happy to see the ending. These are the two groups.
What I think is interesting about the Zero Escape series is that the game has two types of puzzles: “those that can be solved while you play” and “those that can only be solved by thinking hard and that can be left behind if the player follows the game in a normal way”.
— What do you mean by this?
Ryukishi07: For example, things like “I was able to escape from this room”. Basically, every single scenario can be solved “on the surface”.
This is, let’s say, something to feel a sense of accomplishment, not a mystery per se. Because it is designed to be solved by everyone, even by those who can’t.
But the Zero Escape series has a parallel world structure, so there is information that can only be learned by playing the same scenario over and over again or by experiencing different works. It’s amazing that the games have “both ways to enjoy mysteries”: mysteries that can be solved on the surface, as I mentioned earlier, and mysteries that can only be solved by replaying them several times and taking on the challenge head-on.
Uchikoshi: That’s the first time someone told me that… Is that so *laughs*? I wasn’t aware of it myself at all.
— It is surprising that you wrote these structural aspects of mysteries unconsciously.
Ryukishi07: The next Zero Escape game is the third one, isn’t it? I’m not sure if this is the right analogy, but I call this the “curry restaurant problem”. If you run a restaurant and create curry that becomes a hit, fans expect the next one to be even better.
Next, if you make your new dish a mild curry in order to betray the expectations built by the previous one, which was hot, you now have two extremes, “hot or mild”, and there are no more variations left for the third one. In this case, the creator has no choice but to betray the curry itself. However, since fans expect curry, they would be offended if we made something other than curry.
In other words, if you exhaust the “orthodox way/eccentric way” bipolarity, you won’t be able to find the next axis. This is one of the main reasons why the third part in various trilogies tend to be a little bit disappointing.
I wonder how the third part in the Zero Escape series following 9 Hours, 9 Persons, 9 Doors and Virtue’s Last Reward will turn out *laughs*
The new work that is filled with ultimate choices without priorities
Uchikoshi: I was not that adventurous and just made a regular curry *laughs* I knew what the fans of the series were looking for, so I said, “Let’s start with that”.
Ryukishi07: As you can see from the CD illustration, ZERO ESCAPE is clearly more realistic than the previous two games. If 9 Hours, 9 Persons, 9 Doors and Virtue’s Last Reward were aimed at teenagers, I can see that ZERO ESCAPE is mainly targeted at adults who have not played games in a while.
Spike Chunsoft’s Danganronpa is oriented toward teenagers, so as an old man I am happy with this change.
The Zero Escape series is full of choices that you can get lost, depending on your own values, and that’s what makes it interesting!
Uchikoshi: When I am creating a scenario, I come up with routes that I want the players to play through. Therefore, I often put in choices that are obviously meaningless, and the player can kind of imagine the priority of the options, but I think it’s good if the options are ordered as much as possible, without prioritization.
Ryukishi07: There are choices that seem like they would make the player hesitate at first glance, but in fact there is no room for hesitation at all; in fact, it is like “if you hesitate, you lose” *laughs*
But I have no idea which of the choices you were thinking is the correct one, so I always save right before choosing *laughs*
I think this is what Zero Escape is all about. The real appeal of these games is “to be troubled when you have to make a choice”.
In Zero Time Dilemma, there is a new game part called “The ultimate choice”, in which you have to choose between two options, which has never been done in past titles, but all the choice questions are very interesting. It is like the “trolley problem” of Professor Michael Sandel, famous for Justice: What’s the Right Thing to Do?
Uchikoshi: As expected from you. The “trolley problem” is where the concept of “The ultimate choice” started.
Ryukishi07: The “trolley problem” asks you which choice will you make in a situation where you could reduce the number of victims by sacrificing only one person.
In short, the answer depends on what your victory condition is. If you consider the greater number of survivors to be a victory, then you should sacrifice that one person. In the real world, however, it is best to do nothing because of the social disadvantages of becoming a murderer.
Uchikoshi: In the planning stage, we called it a “Life-threatening choice” for simplicity’s sake, but the truth is that with Zero Time Dilemma I wanted to ask people, “Which choice is the right one?”.
Also, this time around, players are given the right to become editors in Zero Time Dilemma. Players can play the multiple complete story fragments in any order they wish, so that no matter which fragment they start with, everything will eventually be connected.
If 100 people play, there will be 100 different experiences. The order in which people die is also completely different for each player.
Ryukishi07: And on top of that, the order of playing has no priority… The storyline is different for each player, and “Which would I choose?” is something you could have endless discussions about with your friends.
— You choose one or the other in the game, but after you turn the game off, you ask yourself, “Was I really right to choose that one?”… This is exactly the charm of mystery games. Thank you very much for your time today!
2016.06.02
Rena-Rena Toshokan 