[source: https://thwiki.cc/-/36ij]
The true value of the doujin games “miracle”
From Higurashi to Umineko to Touhou Project — where is the doujin game movement that blossomed in the 1990s headed?
Here is a discussion between two of the top runners who dominate Comiket.
ZUN
Born in 1977. Doujin game creator. Head of the doujin circle Shanghai Team Alice. Started the Touhou Project series in 1996 while still in college. He took a break from his activities when he began working, but resumed in 2002. His latest work is The Great Fairy War ~ Touhou Sangetsusei.
Ryukishi07
Born in 1973. Doujin game creator. Head of the doujin circle 07th Expansion. He has been creating games while continuing his life as a social worker, publishing Higurashi no Naku Koro ni in 2002. He started a new series Umineko no Naku Koro ni in 2007.
The meaning of characters in game design
— Thank you very much for taking time out of your busy schedule.
I think we are now committing a crime against the doujin game world *laughs* The role played by the movement originating from doujin games can’t be overlooked when we talk about the overall game scene of the 00s.
First of all, please tell us about the background of how you both started creating doujin games and why you chose them in the first place. You started first, didn’t you, ZUN-san?
ZUN: I started when I was in college. I have been making games for about 15 years now.
It was the year 1995, right around the time Windows 95 came out. However, I was developing on MSDOS, not Windows. Doujin software back then was quite different from what it is now, and there were almost no something you would call games, and not many people would buy them. I started making games right around the time when the “bullet hell” (danmaku) games were just starting to emerge. There was no such thing as the danmaku genre, it was just a movement. Nowadays, shooters are divided into “danmaku” and “everything else” but at the time, it was just a matter of the number of bullets on the screen gradually increasing.
Then I graduated from college and got a job at a game company, so I took a break from doujin for about three or four years. However, I was frustrated because I couldn’t make the STGs I liked as much as I wanted to at my job, so in 2002 I returned to doujin and made Touhou Koumakyou.
Ryukishi07: I didn’t have anything like ZUN-san’s “huge love for shooting games”, but there was a long period of time when I wanted to make something, even though I didn’t know what exactly. As a gamer, I liked Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, so I had a vague idea that “if I wanted to make something, it would be a big RPG”.
I used to draw and make cards for trading card games until, after some twists and turns, I came to novel games. I also started noticing that it was actually more enjoying to me to think about the special abilities of cards more than to draw illustrations. In other words, it is the same as creating the setting for a novel game.
ZUN: It is fun to think about things like that. In the case of fighting games, the starting point of game design is to think, “If the character is like this, they would use this kind of technique”, or something like that.
Ryukishi07: The same can be said of Touhou as well. Like, “This character has this personality, so their bullet patterns should probably look like this”.
ZUN: Yes, that’s right. To put it in a cool way, the reason why I am using humanoid characters instead of ships in Touhou is that I thought that by giving them a personality, STG could go one step further to a new stage.
The worst thing about the STGs up to that point was that the system came first. For example, a tank is shooting at you, but bullets are scattered all over the screen. Normally, once the tank is launched, that alone should determine the content of the game to some extent. You could stall for time while the turret is turning and make an escape route.
I think it is possible to design a game with a “system first” approach, but I just can’t get into it. It would be more interesting if a system was designed based on characters and the way enemies attacked. Unlike fighting games, STG lacked this, so I decided to do it myself.
Ryukishi07: I used to play a lot of TAITO’s STGs, but I remember they were limited to inorganic fighter planes that could power up or enemy bosses that changed from the first to the second form. At least until you created Touhou and caused a stir, two out of every three STGs were the ones where the Earth is destroyed in the end *laughs*, and I think the scene was reserved for shooters for maniacs. From the perspective of the average player, just the fact that your character is a beautiful girl rather than an inorganic fighter suddenly motivates you to play *laughs*. The interface is also very intuitive.
ZUN: It’s not only good for players but also helps to add new characters.
If you try to come up with a new system from scratch, you will be limited to thinking about mechanics. But if you have a character, it becomes easier to come up with ideas, because you will be thinking, “I have this character here, so shouldn’t it be like this?”. So, in fact, the characters themselves are not that important. They are just a device to make the gameplay more interesting.
But as time goes by, it gets twisted. Developers start to give a character a lot of details just because they think it will sell better. But they usually fail because they don’t understand the essence of the game *laughs* It is not just a matter of having a character, but whether or not it’s beneficial to the game.
Ryukishi07: “Character moe” alone is not enough.
It has to be a system that is able to be an opponent for the player. But that’s why I hope that people who replay Touhou after finishing it once don’t skip the boss battles *laughs* I’m the type of person who will watch something over and over without getting tired of the cut-scenes.
ZUN: I usually skip over the dialogues in shooters *laughs*
In any game, really. Even in RPGs, I never know where to go next because of it.
Novels are fine, but reading text in games is a pain. I would prefer games that can be played without text.
Ryukishi07: But even in Touhou, dialogues are important because they help to understand the setting.
ZUN: It’s important to make a boss fight exciting. But as long as there is a minimum amount of dialogue, that’s all that’s needed. But isn’t it rather true that novel games are all about the characters?
Ryukishi07: Well, at least I think so. In my case, I am just copying what Key and Leaf have done already. But strictly speaking, often if you just have charismatic characters placed against the story, they will move the plot forward by themselves.
Mine are actually not very character-driven. I am more of a story guy. So, in terms of characters, I lose to those who are making it right. That’s my weakness.
ZUN: In novel games, If the characters are too strong, they’ll just move on their own. That’s fine as long as the characters are charismatic, but I think that novel games are really about the story.
Ryukishi07: I think there are many different ways to create a character, but that’s exactly what I need to learn from Key and Leaf to create more unique ones *laughs*
For me, a scenario is like a haunted house; when everyone is looking at some point in space, and something suddenly jumps out, they will be scared. I like that kind of calculation. In Higurashi, I was switching between fun and horror to rise and lower the mood. I could start with fun and finish with horror, or another way around. Umineko is the same, with a peaceful scene followed by a cruel one. It’s fun to make the player’s mind swing left and right, isn’t it? In my case, I start by surprising the staff members.
ZUN: Shooting games have it too, in a more direct way. Like when I lead a player to the right side, so they are forced to stay and shoot there. But I don’t show it to anyone until it’s done. I like to surprise people too. That’s why I do everything myself, even the test play.
Ryukishi07: That’s a surprise. I thought you were letting someone play a demo or something. Is that how you were able to create that perfect balance?
ZUN: If I show too much to people, I get complacent *laughs* I usually don’t show anything until the game is finished.
I play a lot myself to achieve the balance. Someone will surely argue when I say this, but of all the people who make doujin games, I probably enjoy my own games the most and play them over and over. That’s all I really do *laughs*
Inside and outside of the game
— I see now that for both of you, the characters are only there to create a game system or to tell a story in an appealing way.
I would like to ask you how you both view the concept of a “game”.
Ryukishi07: As for me, actually, this may be in direct conflict with today’s theme, but I believe that a novel game not just a game, but you can call it a “game” because the player interacts with it as a game. It is just a different medium from movies, manga, and anime. However, when I saw Neon Genesis Evangelion, I thought there was something game-like about the setting.
ZUN: I think so too. If you ask me, can you call “game” a program that shows text on the screen, I’d say no. A “novel game” has “novel” in its name for a reason. It’s something made for reading.
But maybe that’s the kind of media that is being sought after right now.
Ryukishi07: That’s how it is. In both Higurashi and Umineko, I go out of my way to give instructions on how to play the game, saying, “Everyone, please try to solve the mystery”. Normally, in a novel, there are no any instructions. It is not like a textbook that says, “Let’s think about the protagonist’s feelings” *laughs*
ZUN: If it’s a mystery novel, you should try to figure out who is the culprit, though.
Ryukishi07: That’s right. But if you read an adventure novel, you usually end up just reading it. If you twist it around and ask yourself, “Couldn’t the protagonist use some better method?”, you can turn it into a game.
Kaiji is pretty fun, isn’t it? The protagonist always asks himself questions like “How can I make money?”, “How can I outwit him?”, etc. When I finished reading it, I spent a whole night discussing it with my friends. We were saying things like, “This is how to get off Espoir with more than three stars”. The excitement we felt after reading it resulted in a game.
— That’s very interesting. In other words, gaming today is basically a matter of consumer acceptance.
Therefore, to give the story some charm, Ryukishi07-san has created a game outside of the package, while giving it a game-like packaging.
ZUN-san, on the other hand, goes in the opposite direction, utilizing characters and stories that can multiply themselves outside of the package to improve the gameplay of STGs.
In any case, I feel that the essence of a game as you both think of it is how the player actively moves against the given conditions.
Ryukishi07: That’s right. I want players to figure out how to play on their own and think outside the box.
In trading card games, as long as you are just comparing numbers, it is merely a game of numbers. To use ZUN-san’s words, as long as you are saying, “Please stop here and avoid the barrage here”, you are being played by the game. You have to come up with your own ideas and try to find the personality of the enemy character’s attacks, or, in extreme cases, go against the “avoid it like this” prescription *laughs*
I think it was Flandre. There is a barrage called “Maze of Love”, right? The correct method is to avoid it by going around in a circle, but I was stubborn and tried to see how much I could last by avoid it while staying in the bottom of the screen *laughs*
ZUN: You can do those things, too.
Don’t worry. It is made with such possibilities in mind *laughs*
Ryukishi07: I think that’s another way to play shooting games. If someone’s only goal in a shooting is to clear the final stage, maybe that’s a bit boring.
ZUN: I think that’s fine. It is enough if each individual has a goal, such as clearing the final stage or setting a goal based on the score. Well, people play in strange ways, though.
Ryukishi07: When you kill an enemy on the top of the screen, you suck up an item, right? And if you try to catch more of those and stay on the top of the screen all the time, you bump right into the enemies. So, when I first start playing a new game, I’m very careful and can get to the second or third level, but if I get greedy and start playing on the top of the screen halfway through, I can’t even complete the first level *laughs*
ZUN: That’s only natural. Going up is a dangerous thing. If you try to get more, you won’t be able to clear the stage.
Ryukishi07: But isn’t that the range of different ways to play?
ZUN: Weeell, no, that’s more of an escape. The idea that you have to earn points to clear a stage is supposed to be correct. But if you do that, there is a big difference between those who are good at it and those who are not.
Nowadays, it seems natural that good players score points, and bad players just want to clear the stage. To hide that, I make it harder to clear the game if you go for points. In fact, there are quite a few games that are designed to be kinder to such players. But it feels fairer if the boss becomes stronger the more points you score. It’s a bit unnatural as a design, but the result is fairer.
Ryukishi07: A game that becomes easier the more points you earn sounds a bit too lenient.
ZUN: I also believe that games are not only about their so-called “gameplay,” although this may seem to contradict what I have said so far. There is a big world called Touhou, it just takes form of a game… well, a game itself is like a world in itself. I also write novels and manga, and I have constructed a world that allows me to do so easily.
I try not to settle on too many details so that it is easier to do this.
Ryukishi07: In that sense, borrowing characters from Touhou or Umineko and making them move in ways they did not in the original work can also become a game.
— Maybe it was the idea of “gameplay” in the narrow sense of the word that caused a backlash against the lack of choices in Higurashi and Umineko.
I think the fact that you didn’t implement choices also shows your view of what a “game” is, but was it your intention?
Ryukishi07: For the first two episodes, I was actually thinking of adding choices. That’s why I wrote in the postscript that I would add them in the complete version.
However, even in the feedback for the second chapter, people wrote to me, “Are there no choices?” or “It’s strange that you can’t avoid the bad ending”, and I reacted by saying, “It’s my style to not add choices” *laughs*
ZUN: There are choices in the console version, though.
Ryukishi07: We had a lot of discussions about it. That was fine for doujin games, but in general, there is a deep-rooted feeling that “if there are no choices, it is not a real novel game”. There was that YaruDora series on PlayStation. It was a well-made game, but it had no choices, and so it was received unfairly bad.
So maybe having choices is still seen as a necessity among general players compared to those who play doujin games.
ZUN: In the end, it’s all about volume. People think that having choices is equal to more volume. If it’s a commercial game, you have to add choices. In the case of RPGs, it’s challenges. We are forced to add volume.
Ryukishi07: In my case, I want to write a longer story without thinking about the branching part. In other words, rather than writing a separate bad end route, I would make the original story longer. Also, I don’t like obvious choices. Like in old game books.
ZUN: If you go for the wrong choice, the game is immediately over *laughs*. But if you have some experience, you won’t choose that, so it’s doesn’t feel like a game at all.
— In the end, Higurashi is often evaluated as being a game that objectifies the “looping world” itself by eliminating choices and thus taking advantage of the “what happens if you choose this” structure of novel games in general, as critics such as Hiroki Azuma’s “The Birth of Game-like Realism” have often pointed out. Were you aware from the beginning that you were trying to capture the structure of sound novels in a meta-fictional way?
Ryukishi07: That didn’t happen in the beginning. It was about a year after I started writing, that is, after the second chapter, when I finally realized how to do it. It’s not like I myself know everything about what I am writing. I polish the ideas as I write. Now I write by feel, but I learned as I went along.
But in any novel game, it’s obvious that if you make a choice, go to the ending, and hit reset, you start from the beginning. For me, that was self-evident, so the story naturally turned out that way.
— In that sense, the ending of the Saikoroshi-hen of Higurashi no Naku Koro ni Rei was very suggestive. I think it was a radical way to confront the resettable structure of the world and the mentality of the players who identified with Rika, as well as the one-time-only nature of life.
Ryukishi07: Yes, that’s right. If there were an A ending, which is the best, and a B or C ending, which is different from the A ending, you would think that B or C is a miss, wouldn’t you? But in our lives, there is no A or B, and I think it is very important for human beings to aim for the best possible outcome within the limits of our efforts.
But when you reach an ending and say, “I won’t go for this one, because it’s inferior to that one”, it’s kind of like… I guess in terms of shooting games you could call it “the holy coin”. If continuity is possible, that value of play lessens, isn’t it? You are supposed to challenge yourself to see how far you can go with three remaining lives for one coin, but if you can have unlimited continues, the concept of life and death is lost. It’s the same in arcade games.
If you go for one-coin clear, the game shines, but when you use money power and bring a pile of 50-yen coins to have a lot of continues, it loses its appeal.
ZUN: So, if you continue, it’s a bad ending. That’s the mentality of people who really like games, isn’t it?
Ryukishi07: I wanted to depict that kind of feeling. Ironically, Higurashi became a story about looping and searching for a good ending for 8 episodes, and because of that, the idea that any ending other than a good ending was “less than good” left a bad aftertaste, which I wanted to fix.
What is “sound” for games?
— It seems that both of you are very particular about the sound aspect of your own game design. Can you tell us why you came to emphasize “sound” in that way, and how you see its role in games overall?
ZUN: I couldn’t program when I just started college, and I wanted to play music. But what wanted to write was game music, not for a band or anything. So, I studied how to use a computer and wrote songs using it.
However, in order for game music to be heard there should be a game, so I had no choice but to create my own one. That’s where I started. Game music is a little different from ordinary music. It is never the star of the show, it is just there to liven up the game. It is only to play on the background, and so I wanted to make music where the main focus is on the game.
That way of thinking is still the same for me today. For people who like game music, music usually goes first. Like, “Who composed that song?”. I don’t really like that.
Ryukishi07: The history of game music has several lines of descent, and among them, the lineage from shooting games is a big one. Is that also the root of your music?
ZUN: Probably, yeah. I have mostly played shooters in arcades. It’s not that I just liked it, it’s all I was doing. It was a part of my life. I think it is something that was cultivated there.
Shootings are actually not that interactive compared to sound novels. First you add the music, and then it is easy to direct the game according to it. That is also why I make shooting games. More than in any other genre, good music makes a game better, and the better the game, the better the music. It produces a good result.
Ryukishi07: I see. The nature of the interactive use of sound in the progression of the game may indeed be stronger in sound novels.
I have a theory that “sound novel” has four characters for “sound” (サウンド) and only three for “novel” (ノベル) for a reason *laughs* So the saddest comment I received on Higurashi was “I was scared, so I played it with the volume set to 0. It wasn’t very scary at all”…
ZUN: That’s mean *laughs* Sound novels were created by Chunsoft, weren’t they? Those were really thoughtful games. However, the first one, Otogirisou, had almost no story and branched off haphazardly, and when it branched off, what happened was that it just tried to scare people *laughs* You can tell that they really wanted to create a new genre.
Ryukishi07: I was one of those who were shocked by it. Well, it was like a surprise box. But there were already a lot of parts that made me cry or scared me just through sound. There is a difference between emotions that are conveyed by reading and emotions that are evoked by listening.
Novel games use pictures, music, and text to stir the emotions of the audience, of which sound plays a large role. If it were a shooting game, even 3 minutes would be long, but in the case of a novel game, a scene can last up to 10 minutes if not longer. If the same song is played all the time, no matter how groovy it is, you will soon get bored. It is difficult to make the audience listen to the music for a long time. Novel game music needs to convey emotions immediately after a scene changes. That is why I often tell my composers, “A piece should convey emotion in the first five seconds”.
ZUN: It is difficult to match the scene exactly because the timing changes depending on the reader. Then, the only way is to create a song that starts out with a bang. Preferably, a song should get people excited the moment it’s started. I have several patterns of easy-to-use songs, like a cool one, a scary one, etc.
Ryukishi07: Yes. For example, there is a composer who takes the prelude very seriously, and if it is lasts for a minute and a half, you might go to the next scene before the chorus begins *laughs*
ZUN: I’m not much of a music theory guy, but when I write songs, I try to surprise people on a emotion level.
I know it’s impossible for someone who is studying music properly to suddenly change it. It’s the same as me wanting to surprise the player with a game. Especially in shooting games, you have to concentrate while hearing the music, so the catchier the better. In other games, I would get bored with that, but in shooting games, the playing time is short, so if it’s not catchy, it’s not good.
Shooting is a genre that allows me to create songs with solid melodies that leave a lasting impression.
Ryukishi07: Your music always keeps me on the edge of my seat *laughs*
ZUN: There is no place where I can lower the tension levels. If the first stage of the game is boring, there is no way to get people to play it. That’s why the first stage is immediately exciting. Then, the second and third stages can’t be boring either, so the game gets more and more exciting as it goes.
— If you think about it this way, it seems that the technique of emotional manipulation through music is in some ways in competition with waiting for the player’s active challenge, which was mentioned earlier.
Depending on how it is used, it can function as a kind of deception. The film director Luis Buñuel did not use underscores (background music) at all in some of his later films. The musician Naruyoshi Kikuchi has been attracting attention for his suspicion of the “coercive power of music” in it…
ZUN: Yes. If anything, I want the player to think as I think. So, I make songs that I think are good. If I do so, people with the same sensibilities become pleased *laughs*
Music is a religion. No matter how music is made, its influence is propagated as it is, and rarely does everyone have different interpretations about a piece of music. It’s too simple for that. Even the sound effects are too simple to make strange noises when an explosion occurs. It still has to sound like an explosion. That’s why you can’t really play around with it. The music and sound effects are what people are looking for. It has to be something that everyone can hear and understand.
Ryukishi07: Music contains great power in it. For example, if you play scary music against an ordinary background, just with that the scene turns into horror. I think music has tremendous power to control emotions.
On the other hand, there are times when I try to use music that is different from what everyone expects. People notice that, and sometimes they come to me and say, “I disagree with the music choice for this scene”. Players are happy when the music they imagined matches with what they hear. It means that the way they feel is right.
When there is a gap, the player feels uncomfortable. To achieve sense of horror and incongruity, I used some obviously out of place music in Higurashi.
In any case, music is a very powerful emotional control technique, and if used skillfully, it can also be used as a tool in the game.
— Just like characters, the music from Touhou has been taken out of the context of the games by creators and consumers of secondary works, and has been arranged in various ways. I feel that there is a certain game-like quality to it.
ZUN: When you make an arrangement, it stops being a game music. There is no need to make it fit the game anymore. As for the music itself, I think it is very freeing and good.
On the other hand, in many modern games, there are only ambient sounds. The reason for this is clear: games have become more realistic. When the game itself becomes more realistic, adding the music starts to feel unnatural. In the past, games needed sound to stimulate the imagination because the graphics was not enough. But if the game is a one where people are talking all the time, music is no longer necessary.
Ryukishi07: However, as I took a film class at college, I would say that abandoning music in the medium of film, for example, is the wrong direction for challenging the viewer. I think it’s acceptable in the world of novels, but in the world of film, which appeals to the sense of hearing, abandoning it is not a proper choice.
To use an analogy, it is as ridiculous as a competitor saying, “It is natural to run faster on two legs, but I will invent a way to run faster on one leg than on both legs”. In the world of movies and games, which appeal to the eyes and ears, it is not a good idea to reject one of those. If the challenge is just to “let your eyes tell you more than sound”, that’s fine. But abandoning hearing altogether, I don’t know about that.
ZUN: I don’t think anyone abandoning it. A silent film is a silent film because sound is important. If it didn’t matter if there was sound or not, there would be no such thing as a silent film. It is important to make it silent. Silence is one of the sounds. This kind of music was not played in the restaurants in the past. I feel very strange about that. I was thinking to myself, “Come to think of it, restaurants in the old days hardly had any music playing”. Nowadays, it’s normal. It determines the atmosphere of the restaurant. But it doesn’t have to be there.
Therefore, I think we can create a sense of atmosphere with sounds, voices, and sound effects that are not background music. After all, there is no any music in nature.
Direction: scripting and division of labor
ZUN: By the way, do you do everything by yourself, even scripting and direction?
Ryukishi07: It’s made by the staff members, but I make the final adjustments. Sometimes, while I am writing a scenario, I make notes like “please do this” in advance, but most of the time it is at the very end.
Rather, I try not to think too much about direction while I’m working on the scenario.
ZUN: Don’t you want to do those things yourself? I feel it would be easier that way.
Ryukishi07: To be honest, I really want to do it all. Right now, I’m having the staff bung in a temporary project, and we estimating the time needed and things like that. The scenarios are getting longer and longer, and now I need the help of the staff… The production has become much more elaborate than in the past.
ZUN: That’s why I do as much as I can by myself. I even left my job because I didn’t want to work in a team *laughs*
Ryukishi07: Well, I think that’s right.
But I just want to concentrate on writing. Actually, programmers are not that strong in our industry. There are famous scenario writers, famous musicians, and famous artists for text, music and drawings respectively, but we don’t really hear of great programmers who put all that work together.
I have heard that Kinoko Nasu of TYPE-MOON has the direction ready in his mind when he is writing the text, and he is putting the instructions in as he typing.
ZUN: Unlike movies or animation, in the case of games, you have to think about the timing of the controls. It influences the timings of when the music changes, or when an object is destroyed. I think everyone is refining their sense of timing.
Ryukishi07: That kind of expression involving the expansion and contraction of time is actually similar to manga.
Novel games are a completely new genre that adopts the manga and film approaches. They inevitably thought of as manga plus cinema, so they are not considered a new medium. They haven’t gained their citizenship yet, though they may be able to gain it thanks to devices like iPad.
ZUN: Hmmm. I think if they get citizenship, I won’t want to touch them anymore. That’s how I feel *laughs*
Ryukishi07: Well, maybe they are enjoying it because they are stragglers in a way.
The Changing “Derivative works” and the Future of Doujin Game Culture
— Going back to our initial discussion, in your works, the representation of the characters was only a method of expressing the game system or the storyline.
However, I think the desire for communication through derivative works proliferated, which was happening in various forms of expression in the 00s, separating from function and context.
I think that your works, in particular, are outstanding in terms of their ability to induce derivative works. What do you think is the reason for this?
ZUN: That was never my intention. As I said before, I just created the setting so that I could easily use it later.
Ryukishi07: If it is easy for you to use, it is also easy for your fans to use. And you yourself even create derivative works of your own works.
ZUN: I always say that what I am making are derivative works. For example, I did not come up with any of the shrines and gods on my own. And since I use them in my works, they are basically derivative works. I just put a little bit of my own spin into it. Maybe I don’t think of derivative works and original works separately.
Ryukishi07: For me as well, the interface is always derivative. What I want to create is not something that no one has ever seen before, but something simpler, something that allows people to empathize better and experience a whole range of emotions. But I always want to be innovative in my approach.
ZUN: It is perfectly acceptable for fans to build something on top of that.
Ryukishi07: Yeah, I don’t mind. Everyone is welcome to play on the field I’ve set up. And even if I made a baseball field, you are also free to play something other than baseball on it. In fact, that is exactly what a derivative work is.
ZUN: But you don’t think about the place at the time you make it. It’s just how it turns out.
What I want to say is, as I said before, those who intentionally make gaps like that in their games to make it easy for others to create secondary works can mistakenly think that they are modern. There are a lot of those right now, but I want to say: “Please stop that already”. That’s just doesn’t work. It’s wrong to think that having a character is enough. It’s superficial. Every time I see something like that, I think, “Oh my God, they are doing it again”.
Ryukishi07: Inducing creation of secondary works is not something you can aim for. Well, I wanted people to play outside of the field, and it includes secondary works too.
ZUN: You can aim for it. But if you do that, you have to study hard and make it in earnest. Higurashi and Umineko are earnest works, which is why they have become so popular.
Ryukishi07: No, no. If I knew how to aim for that, I would have done it. I don’t know enough to say, “If you’re serious, go for it” *laughs*
— How do you view the fact that derivative works of your two works are flourishing to such an extent?
I would like to ask you about the current state of doujin game culture, including your outlook for the future.
ZUN: It’s a lot of fun. Nowadays, with doujin culture and Nico Nico Douga there have been emerged a certain number of new roads, and we can sort of grasp the big flow of things, but the process expanding is particularly interesting. Right now, I don’t have any “what I want it to be” or “what I don’t want it to be” ideas.
Ryukishi07: I am feeling grateful. It is refreshing to be able to see the world I created from an angle that I have not depicted before. In a way, it is a moment when I, the creator, can return to being a fan. That’s why I love doujin works, and it’s fun to see the characters live on their own.
ZUN: This is my opinion, but I don’t think there is an increase in the number of people who try themselves at developing existing characters, but rather the number of people who try to create new things. When creating something, it is difficult to make a completely original work, so they create using what they have on their hands. So even if you call it a secondary work, it is still basically a new work. I think everyone just wants to make things.
Ryukishi07: I completely agree. In the past, you had to be able to program properly to create something, but now, ultimately, all you need is a phone to do it. As you said, it is very hard to create from scratch.
ZUN: Many of those who try to supplement what’s lacking are those who are creating something for the first time. People who really want to create things come in. Rather than veterans who have done lots of parodies, people who are doing it for the first time or who have always wanted to do it are more likely to come in. I think that is a very good thing.
Ryukishi07: Do you yourself have any particular attachment to originality at all? Is it enough for you to have a character that is easy to use?
ZUN: I’m too lazy to do a thorough research, so it’s faster for me to make it myself *laughs* It is faster and easier for me to do everything myself, not just the characters.
Also, I don’t know much about other people’s works. For a while, I was a just a shooting nerd or rather a game nerd, so that’s all I knew. I didn’t think much about making other things.
Ryukishi07: Looking back, doujin culture has changed a lot. In the old Comiket days of the 80’s, there was an air of fundamentalism about the original works, and doujin was a fan activity, an act of worship, which didn’t allow to go in any strange direction too much.
Then, from the 90s to the 00s, it became normal to put the characters into your own story.
ZUN: VOCALOID would not be popular in the 80s.
Ryukishi07: In those days, it was important to have a story. Nowadays, however, we live in an age of creation by borrowing characters and giving our own stories to them, so as long as the characters feel alive, everyone can create whatever story they want.
So, I think in the future we will see more original works.
ZUN: I’m not sure if that can be called an original work.
Ryukishi07: For example, let’s take Gensokyo. In the past, just having characters that live in Gensokyo would be enough for a secondary work. Nowadays, however, there are interpretations of those characters that you yourself have not depicted before. In the doujin world, there are templates for interpersonal relationships. That’s why such works become possible.
So, I think that as the next step more and more people will start putting their own characters in Gensokyo. Right now, however, I think if you put out an original character in Gensokyo, you will get bashed.
ZUN: There were quite a bit of those in the beginning. Probably there are many people who want to add their own original characters, but as the title gets bigger, the room for that on the contrary becomes smaller. When Touhou was still a small title, it was quite free, but as it gets bigger, it becomes difficult to do.
Ryukishi07: Right. There is not such freedom just yet. I think that will become acceptable in the 10s.
ZUN: Like with Lovecraft. Everyone makes their own stuff in his universe.
Ryukishi07: Even today’s secondary productions contain far more originality than those of 10 to 20 years ago. Perhaps in another 10 years, there will surely be more freedom there.
ZUN: I wonder. As it will go on, we may return to a question of “What’s a secondary work anyway?”. And then, “Why should I make a derivative work when I can make an original one?”.
— Among “Touhou” tags on Nico Nico Douga there is a “Gensou Iri” (“Entering the Illusion”) one, and that’s an interesting one. Basically, it’s about entering Gensokyo, and it is common to depict yourself doing that. I feel that Touhou is exceptionally suited for such things.
ZUN: Because that’s sort of thing that I do. I always include something that is “probably forgotten” as a story seed. Because of the setting, every time I make a new game, I include current events and topics. Something that is interesting because of the present moment. That idea itself is just what people who create secondary works are doing. That is why I have always said that what I am making is a derivative work. Some of them are derivative of nature and some are derivative from Touhou.
— What do you think is the nature of the desire that drives people to communication through secondary works?
For example, people who want to do creative work are supposed to have some kind of message for the world.
ZUN: A message? I don’t think people think about it that much. If I had to say, if there is a message, it would be something like “Hey, I am here”.
Ryukishi07: I think people create because they want to communicate. I doubt people will keep updating blogs that no one reads.
After all, it’s fun because there is feedback. If you create a derivative work of something, you have a better chance of being seen than if you create it from scratch, in the sense that you are a fan who knows the original work. And after you gain some audience through that, why not start making your own original creations?
Human beings are not creatures that can endure solitude, so I don’t think there are many people who enjoy creating things in vacuum. I also make them because I know someone will see them. If I say that in case one day my visibility was go back to zero because of some Doraemon tool or something, and my motivation will stay the same, that won’t be true.
ZUN: Hmm, there are people who do it for such communication, but there are others who do it for other reasons. I think that’s where the separation lies. Everyone groups together with their own people. When subdivided in this way, the word “doujin” may be no longer enough to describe all of them.
Rather than being a possibility, I would call it a path I would choose. I have had this feeling for a while now.
Even among people who make doujin software, there are different ways of thinking. Each of us is connected to a different community, and I can kind of imagine “if these people got together, this is what they would do”.
Ryukishi07: The same game is different in the doujin world and the free game world, isn’t it?
ZUN: Some people want to be professionals, while others are fine with the fact that they are doujin creators. Some believe that a secondary work is good exactly because it’s a secondary work. There is no reason for everyone to do the same thing. Just change the wording and create another community. The only thing left to do is to see who moves on.
Ryukishi07: It’s difficult. After all, you can’t imagine what lies in the future. Then, since you talked about the Big Bang, saying that the future is getting wider and wider, let’s talk about the Big Crunch.
I believe that Comiket was originally an industry of the young, but now there are a lot of people who are older. While there are teenagers coming to Comiket, there are also creators who are much older than us. I think that would make Comiket even more multi-layered than it is now, from the immature to the near-professional level. For example, a 30-year doujin veteran from a kabe-circle might be compared with a work from a circle with one or two years of experience, and the younger group might get lost.
ZUN: That was actually true until recently. But in the past few years, the number of people making doujin soft has increased. Even if it’s a bad product, there are people who publish it. I think that’s a good thing.
Ryukishi07: That’s why I draw pictures even though I’m bad at drawing, as I’m practicing the idea that it’s OK to do doujin even if you’re not good at it *laughs* People often say that it’s fine for official art to be bad. Well, I think that just means that’s the case in the end, but it does not mean that we should go out of our way to draw badly.
ZUN: People say that after the fact, but it’s not that simple. It’s an easy idea, but we shouldn’t be naive. I just believe that we have to allow ourselves to be funny. I say “be prepared to be made fun of”, but since we lack in so many areas, it is only natural. I think new people that have such determination will continue to enter the market.
When you strive for perfection, it really only takes a little of beating up to ruin you. A picture is a symbol. It is enough if it is a minimum representation of that character. It is the professional illustrator who makes the picture perfect. If it is a game or manga, it is enough if it is only an adequate representation.
— In summary, what are your thoughts on where the potential of “a game” lies in the current communication-dominated scene that doujin games have established?
Ryukishi07: Games are not like drugs. They are not something you can just inject and make anyone have fun. It depends on the spirit of the player who wants to enjoy and chew it up. Just having a ball thrown at you is not fun. Doesn’t it only become fun because you throw back the ball you receive and establish communication?
Many people forget about it. In particular, games are something that one side pays for, so if the customer mentality is “I paid for the game, so I should be entertained”, the game cannot actually be enjoyed. Unless the player has an active attitude of “let’s have fun”, the “game” will not be established. No matter how much the media advances, I don’t think that aspect will change. I think the beauty of doujin games is that you this attitude can be stronger than with commercial games.
ZUN: Until about five years ago, I was one of those people who thought a lot about the concept of “gameplay”, but not so much anymore *laughs* It’s natural to have fun when you are playing a game, but I’ve found that “fun” itself is not actually in the game. When you feel “fun”, it is outside.
To share “fun” is itself fun, and sometimes it can be found even in super shitty games *laughs* That is the moment when the content of the game becomes not that important. Of course, I don’t think the creators can control that much.
I just think that games are standing up in a big way now, including this aspect, and it is affecting communication as a whole. I think we can take that as a positive.
Rena-Rena Toshokan 