2008.03
Rokkenjima no Arukikata: How to walk Rokkenjima
Part 2
This is the second part of a Toratsu’s “Rokkenjima no Arukikata” series of interviews.
— Now that we are back again with the “Nakasekata” series in Toratsuu magazine, I would like to start off by asking, “How was last year’s Comic Market?”.
Ryukishi07: Overall, I felt that the number of regular visitors has increased, but those who come to our booth were all experienced veterans (laughs) So, I enjoyed participating as much as I did in the times of Higurashi.
Yatazakura: I was a bit busy in winter, though I was able to participate in the summer when EP1 was released.
Ryukishi07: You are a summer guy after all.
— Also, last summer was very hot and winter was really cold.
BT: Yes, and the air was very dry, so the sellers seemed to have a hard time.
Ryukishi07: Everyone got a lump in their throat. I just became empty after I handed end-of-the-line sign over and helped to organize the line. And dai fell asleep.
dai: Yes. I spent the first week of the new year with the flu (bitter laugh)
Ryukishi07: He was spreading the ideas of hand washing and gargling among 07th Expansion, but he still collapsed, probably because he recommended his original method, alcohol disinfection, a bit too much (laughs)
(Everyone laughs)
— So, it’s also about health consciousness and, by extension, maintaining a smooth production system.
Ryukishi07: Of course. In the rush before the master-up, if someone collapses, it’s game over, so everyone is busy trying to keep themselves active. If you want to pursue quality, first of all you have to be in good health. We are working in a small environment, so if one person catches a cold, it could spread to all of us at once.
— It is wonderful to work with people that care about your health.
BT: He-he-he (starts chuckling while his smile gets bigger and bigger)
Yatazakura: What’s up?
BT: Ah, sorry, I just remembered something about an insect repellent.
Ryukishi07: Yeah, that was awful.
— What happened?
Ryukishi07: I had asked BT to buy desiccants for cameras and other moisture-sensitive equipment, but he misunderstood and bought camphor (used as an insecticide and an antiseptic), and the house was once filled with a distinctive and terrible smell.
BT: It was unbearable.
Yatazakura: At that time, there was some construction work going on where I live.
Ryukishi07: It was a double punch of camphor and paint, plus the noise of nearby construction… So it became a triple punch.
— Speaking of health-consciousness, I read a certain book called Shinso Kaimei Dokuhon, and found it very funny to see BT getting hooked on Icebox and everyone riding on a certain horseback riding machine.
BT: They are not selling Icebox now!
Ryukishi07: Well, it’s winter after all. But we are hooked on things like NEX same as always.
BT: Last winter we were eating a lot of glass noodles.
Ryukishi07: When you work at night, you often get hungry, but snacks and ramen noodles are too heavy and unhealthy. But BT-san had his eye on glass noodles and bought all kinds he could find. However, glass noodles are glass noodles, and even though they have a variety of flavors, the base remains the same, so it gradually began to erode my heart.
(Everyone laughs)
Yatazakura: You used to buy healthy cookies before, right?
Ryuu: Every time there’s a crisis, a new boom or favorite emerges, but every time it becomes a traumatic experience.
— So, who exactly is the instigator of these booms?
(Everyone looks silently at BT)
Ryuu: When the chaos starts and the 07th begins to drift, it’s BT who first starts to lose it (laughs). It’s written in Kaimei Dokuhon too, but he starts dancing while saying “Wow! This’s freaking delicious!!” with a snack on his head. Everyone tries to stop him, saying “Stop it, get a grip!!” (laughs).
— I’m really happy that you all always maintain pleasant atmosphere.
Ryuu: It’s really great to be with people who have been around for so long, and above all, when dai-san comes, the atmosphere in the workplace becomes more focused and tight. When we’re all holed up working for hours on end, it’s like being back in college after an all-nighter. Some people start to read manga, some watch TV, some take naps, and in that situation, dai-san’s presence saying, “What should we do next?” is truly appreciated. What I’m most conscious of in Umineko is each member’s role. Until now, we’ve all been working together in a flurry, dividing tasks into steps like, “Next is this task, then that task”. EP2 was a tough one, but I think we overcame it because each person worked with their best effort in their respective roles. After I got the flu in the summer and couldn’t get my motivation back, wasting a whole month from September 2007 onwards, it was really difficult to get back into it.
— As a staff member of Tora no Ana, it might be disrespectful towards your fans to ask, but have you ever considered stopping at just one work?
Ryukishi: Not at all. In a sense, free time is a double-edged sword. Once you get used to it, you might just be carried away by that freedom. In that sense, it might have been our greatest success to go straight from Higurashi no Naku Koro ni Rei to Umineko no Naku Koro ni at the early stage of EP1, not EP2.
— Your passion for production is truly admirable. In one interview, you mentioned, “I’m going on a family trip to Okinawa”, and I didn’t expect you to come back in this form (Shannon and George).
Ryukishi: Oh, that brings back memories, like a time capsule. I happened to take a mountain of photos in Okinawa at that time, and they’re connected to the opening scene in Okinawa. No one would have thought that the Umineko title logo would appear in front of Shuri Castle, right? (laughs)
— Was that scene already in your mind from the start?
Ryukishi: Not entirely. It’s been a habit of mine since the time of Higurashi to always take photos wherever I go, whether it’s in the city, countryside, residential areas, or trendy cafes. Now my collection has grown into an enormous library. I match these photos with the imagery of the work to shape the scenes. Since I never know when or what kind of situation might be needed, I just take photos of anything that seems like it could be useful.
— Isn’t it usual to go location hunting only after the scene’s imagery and plot have been established?
Ryukishi: Well, the more unique the situation, the harder it is to find the right location when you need it. For example, if you suddenly need a scene set in a cell, it’s tough to prepare it on the spot, isn’t it? So, you either have to proactively search for a location with a cell, or if there isn’t one, you have to substitute it with something else. In the past, whenever I said, “I want a scene like this”, Yatazakura would find it for me. But with Higurashi being a summer story thematically, we couldn’t use materials with impressions of spring, autumn, or winter, so it was quite challenging.
— Thinking back, the images for Sonozaki family’s torture chamber in Higurashi were quite challenging to find, weren’t they.
Yatazakura: Initially, the main reference for that was a photo of a tool shed from our first location hunt. And the lattice for the cell was based on a photo of the lattice from the nearest old shrine, which was then darkened in editing.
Ryukishi: For scenes like the police station, we have to get creative with creating the atmosphere, using things like fluorescent lights in a conference room-like, stark white room or sturdy glass ashtrays. After all, you can’t just walk into a police station and start taking photos.
— Well, let’s finally delve into the main topic. Playing through EP1 and EP2 of Umineko no Naku Koro ni one noticeable aspect compared to Higurashi no Naku Koro ni is the different approach to mystery and the way the user is engaged in the process of reasoning. Could you comment on that?
Ryukishi: First, I need to correct something I told before. I once said in the early days of Higurashi, that I didn’t read many books, which seems to have given the impression that I never read any books at all… (bitter laugh) During an interview with Kodansha, I was surrounded by people who were well-versed in authors and their previous works, with Kinoko Nasu as my counterpart and Kouji Watanabe as the interviewer, both of whom are avid readers. Being among such people, I couldn’t possibly say that I was a reader, so I ended up saying I didn’t read much. However, if someone who has read about a hundred books can list reading as a hobby, then I believe I read far more, including Japanese and foreign books, paperbacks, and so on.
Now, returning to your question, while Higurashi no Naku Koro ni is structured as to have mystery-like elements, it leans more towards what could be termed as “shakai-ha (social) mystery”. The characters in the story have a more “orthodox mystery” mindset, and the interesting gap arises from the irony of society that emerges from there. The idea is based on the concept that the world is not just a puzzle but is shaped by the tragedies and sorrows of various people, forming the events.
In contrast, Umineko no Naku Koro ni is more conscious of the thought process of “puzzle mystery” or “orthodox mystery”. However, what I want to emphasize is the aspect of being “conscious” of these elements. Whether this story is made as “orthodox” or as a “fantasy-filled anti-orthodox mystery” is something I’d like users to deduce for themselves. The difference in approach may simply stem from the fact that the genres are different.
— The foundation of that approach is what you mentioned last time as “the classic theme of consecutive murders on a secluded island”, right?
Ryukishi: Yes, exactly. It’s not the kind of story that’s often seen nowadays when the beauty of form is most prioritized. For example, there are fantastical elements like hidden doors and the incredibly elaborate disguises of the Fiend with Twenty Faces in the works of Edogawa Rampo, a snake that’s completely tamed and returns home after killing its neighbor, or an orangutan climbing up a rain gutter of an apartment building. The mystery genre from the 19th to the 20th century is incredibly diverse. While Japan tends to focus on “orthodox” mysteries, the opposite, the “revolution”, the narrative, and the social aspect, which is the foundation of Higurashi, are also one genre.
“Social mystery” typically portrays an event realistically, depicting various real-life occurrences such as human error, suppression by public opinion, changes in investigative policies, wrongful convictions, and forensic errors. In the past, when the estimated time of death for the burned body of Takano Miyo was disclosed in Higurashi, some people argued that it was unfair as a mystery because the police making mistakes in estimating the time of death is unfair! However, this could be considered unfair only under the conditions limited to those with a preference for “orthodox” mysteries. Earlier, I mentioned Edogawa Rampo, but his works actually cover a wide range of genres. There are stories featuring mysterious figures, tales of young men abducted to secluded islands, monsters prowling the darkness of the city, targeting only valuable antiques. Readers are left to ponder until the very end whether the culprit is a supernatural being or an intelligent criminal disguised as one, or perhaps something entirely different. I wanted to create a world like this. The concept I proposed in Umineko, “Is it possible to solve the mystery?” precisely refers to this aspect. I hope readers will be asking themselves what genre this work actually belongs to.
— Even after discussing the theme and genre, I still need to ask: how can I win on the board of Umineko no Naku Koro ni? What are the rules? What are the conditions for victory or defeat—life or death, truth or falsehood? Is it a story about avoiding each individual murder on a micro level, or is it about avoiding a larger tragedy on a macro level? This is something I still can’t grasp very well.
Ryukishi: It might be easy for me to answer that now, but I can’t provide an answer. I believe it’s something that shouldn’t be said as it would narrow the ways to enjoy the work. For example, even if the ultimate goal in an RPG is to defeat the final boss, the game’s value lies in the journey and the branching paths that lead there. This approach doesn’t impose a specific way to enjoy the game. Therefore, I haven’t set fixed parts that need to be solved or specific conditions for victory.
If we were to keep score, those who notice and tackle multiple mysteries would have a higher score. When asked the same question during the creation of Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, I replied, “The number of mysteries you find and the number of answers you write down for those mysteries will be your score”. I think it’s the same here. This is more about how you enjoy the work rather than winning or losing.
However, if you want a simple answer in terms of winning and losing, it comes down to the simplest question presented in the first episode: whether you continue to deny the witch or not. Many people end up in the realm of fantasy because they try to expose the witch after acknowledging her existence, thinking, “The witch exists, doesn’t she?” But if you think back, how many people actually believed in the witch during EP1?
— The witch only appeared during the Tea Party, right?
Ryukishi: But after EP2 ended, everyone had completely accepted or started to accept the existence of the witch. Despite Bernkastel insisting during the Tea Party that you shouldn’t believe in the witch, people’s mindset shifted. This is the gameplay challenge that we were able to introduce for the first time with Umineko no Naku Koro ni as a sound novel. It’s essentially about the choice of whether or not to submit to the witch. Those who don’t submit will continue to resist the witch and prove that the crimes were committed by humans. Those who do submit can enjoy the story as a fantasy.
— Personally, I believe that the witch exists, but that the crimes were committed by humans.
Ryukishi: That’s the Hanyuu-like existence theory. It’s the idea that supernatural beings exist, but the tragedies are caused by humans. In other words, you don’t doubt the presence of a supernatural observer, but you separate that from the crimes themselves. It seems that many people who come from Higurashi hold this view.
— As someone from that background, I find myself thinking about that position. I even worry that you, as the Game Master, are aware of this perspective, and that it might itself be a trick. I find myself struggling with where the rules are and where to start thinking.
Ryukishi: I think old RPGs were quite similar in this regard. For example, I’ve heard about some famous RPG where the sea gradually became narrower. Before story-driven RPGs, the narrative was about the protagonists freely wandering a vast world and growing, with various mid-bosses and mysteries serving as obstacles. The enjoyment came from connecting these elements.
In older RPGs, when you could start using a ship in the middle of the game, there were so many places to go that you might get overwhelmed and give up. It was about the excitement of discovering unknown lands and towns. That’s the current position of Umineko no Naku Koro ni. It’s just a sound novel that you read; it doesn’t show scores or GAME OVER messages, yet it presents a challenging theme where some people might feel defeated by the story while others resist it. That was the kind of challenge I wanted to achieve.
— Right now, I am at point where you feel lost just after leaving the harbor.
Ryukishi: I hope you can enjoy that feeling of being adrift as well. However, in this age of the internet, there are guides, various people’s theories, and books like Kaimei Dokuhon available. Seeing different people’s ideas might help you find a breakthrough. Discussing the mysteries you face with others, hearing different perspectives, and exploring new possibilities can lead to collective intelligence, which is the best approach to solving the game’s mysteries, as it has been since Higurashi.
It’s important to note that those who “submit” are not necessarily losers. The fantasy style and reality style communities each progress the story with their own interpretations. But because the style of this work is very challenging, we’ve set up a world where “submitting means losing”. The concept is that we’re testing how many people can resist and believe in the reality of the crimes. How long can you hold out? This perspective has been presented right from the back cover of the CD jacket.
— I see.
Ryukishi: Compared to Higurashi, I think Umineko is really quite friendly. By the second episode, Bernkastel-sama comes to the Tea Party and explains that this is the kind of game it is. Beatrice, despite saying terrible things, very kindly instructs you to “deny her”. It’s an incredibly tsundere game.
— Speaking of rules, I start to suspect that everyone surviving for two days might be one of them.
Ryukishi: The idea that everyone has to survive is just inherited from Higurashi, isn’t it? The reason everyone had to survive in Higurashi was because its theme was unity and cooperation. It was a world view where breaking through together with everyone was required. So, if you are looking for a condition in Umineko where everyone survives to clear the game, you need to explore why such a rule is necessary. If Higurashi was about friendship, unity, and a victory where no one dies, then you need to explore what the framework or theme of the world in Umineko is.
— So that’s the rule of the game board.
Ryukishi: Exactly. In this world, what you’re trying to uncover is the objective. If you have a sharp intuition, you might start thinking, “What is the victory condition in this world?” and reach some conclusions on your own. Comparing the framework of Higurashi, where everyone survives, with the framework of Umineko… If I say any more, it might spoil the fun. I already have the final scene in mind, so I’m thinking about how everything will unfold towards that ending. Right now is probably the most enjoyable time. It’s more exciting to follow each episode, discussing and theorizing with others, rather than playing through the entire story in a couple of days and getting all the answers at once.
— I apologize if this is a silly question, but wasn’t debugging the red text in this game quite challenging?
BT: It wasn’t that difficult. It’s just a matter of tagging the text to appear in red, so the task wasn’t particularly big.
Ryukishi: It was about the same as changing a character’s expression before their dialogue. What was actually more challenging was adjusting the text display speed to match the scene. It’s not something you can easily grasp intuitively, so that part was more difficult.
— Speaking of text display speed, I think “Tsurupettan” might be unbeatable in that regard.
Ryukishi: That song was quite popular among our staff, to the point that around November, we contacted Silver Forest via email, quite close to the deadline. We had no prior acquaintance, so I sent them a sort of love letter by email. They graciously agreed almost immediately, and with a “Let’s do it!” attitude, we went ahead with it. Despite BT being busy, I asked him to take some time to create it in the style of certain videos, and in about three days, he came up with a masterpiece.
— So, you made it in a style of Nico Nico Douga by controlling the text as you mentioned earlier.
Ryukishi: Originally, the tool we were using wasn’t designed for creating action games but rather for making sound novels. The initial version was very heavy in terms of processing, and it could only display about two lines of text at a time, so we had to make significant modifications.
BT: There’s a new feature in Nscript called the demo command, which allowed for much faster screen rendering. By using that, I think we were able to create a pretty good bullet hell effect.
Ryukishi: The over-the-top feel of it was fantastic (laughs).
— Speaking of that scene, the Touhou cosplay…
Ryukishi: Ever since EP1 ended, people were saying there was someone who looked like Marisa, so I just went with, “Yes, it’s Marisa. Got a problem with that?” (laughs)
(All burst into laughter)
Ryukishi: I think the sense of communication with the users around this is something I want to cherish.
— Like “Tomitake Flash”
Ryukishi: When I was drawing George, I thought he looked like Tomitake (laughs). I enjoy incorporating that kind of official secondary gags.
— Bringing the questions back to the characters in EP2, I’m very curious since it’s currently the second popularity poll period. First of all, why is Gohda in 9th place?
(Everyone laughs)
Ryukishi: Popularity polls have had certain trends since the days of Higurashi. The overall popularity tends to become apparent after the game is completely finished. During the game, the impressions of the most recent work and the most current characters are too strong to measure true popularity. Last time, Natsuhi was really popular, and now Gohda’s popularity is rising. On the flip side, if we spotlight a character who hasn’t received much attention in the next installment, their popularity might increase.
— It’s frustrating, but Gohda’s pride and coolness were really well-received this time. Especially since he seemed so unlikable before.
Ryukishi: Yes, showing the good side of an unlikeable character can earn a lot of points. When the impression reverses, the likability can skyrocket, which is quite interesting.
— On the other hand, as someone who loves Shannon, I wonder why she’s ranked 11th.
Ryukishi: Having a boyfriend is tough (laughs). It might be the fate of characters who are part of a couple. However, the popularity of the free and mysterious beautiful witches makes up for it a lot. It’s particularly interesting to see how far Natsuhi’s popularity can go, despite her having not just a boyfriend but a husband. When she ranked high in the popularity poll after Episode 1, I was really pleased.
— In Episode 2, more than Episode 1, the interactions between married couples are very well defined, and among them I liked Krauss and Natsuhi a lot. What kind of portrayal of marriage did you want to create in this work?
Ryukishi: This isn’t a hard-boiled work, so I wanted people to see the ideal in the marriage. Society functions because people fall in love, get married, and have children. If everyone stayed single, the country would collapse. Umineko deals with the theme of family and blood relations, and I consider marriage important, even if it’s portrayed a bit dryly, it’s not meant to be pessimistic. If I were to write it in a hard-boiled style, it might depict something like a realistic separation within the household. In Higurashi, I portrayed such themes more realistically, showing issues like Rena’s parents’ relationship and Satoko’s uncle and aunt. However, that’s not the theme in Umineko. Despite the family’s outward appearance of bickering over inheritance, there are still model couples. If I were to write something more sordid, it might involve both spouses having affairs and being on the verge of divorce, with a mysterious daughter revealed to be the head’s illegitimate child (laughs).
— The relationship between Krauss and Natsuhi, which seemed difficult compared to couples like Eva and Hideyoshi or Rudolf and Kyrie, turned out to be surprisingly warm and endearing.
Ryukishi: There’s a website where someone continuously draws manga of Krauss and Natsuhi, depicting them as a very loving couple. I’ve really enjoyed those. Natsuhi’s popularity might be thanks to such fans.
BT: Looking at Battler’s popularity, it seems like we have a lot of female users and fans who like protagonist-type characters.
— There are probably a lot of casual players out there.
Ryukishi: Yeah, if there was more of a bias, the Seven Stakes of Purgatory would probably rank higher. It’s strange that they’re outside the top 20. If without reading the room the top spot was taken by Satan or Asmodeus I would think that’s probably because of the blonde hair and twin tails which are so popular now. If all the Stakes were dominating the top seven, that would have been fun too (laughs).
— I’d like to ask about Rosa, who has surged in popularity and surpassed even the Seven Stakes of Purgatory. I’ll touch on a delicate subject. On the night of the first day, Rosa was with the other siblings in the chapel. Why is the description of what happened afterward so vague?
Ryukishi: Well, why do you think that is? (laughs) Maybe nobody asked about it, so it wasn’t answered. All the siblings and Beatrice were there, right? Then all the siblings died, and Beatrice didn’t show herself afterward. So, nobody knows, right? If nobody knows, maybe Rosa never went to the chapel and was just sleeping in her room. What do you think about that? (laughs) If something seems off to you, that’s the first step. It’s from those moments of doubt that things start to build up.
— This time, Rosa has received a lot of focus, similar to Natsuhi in the previous episode, which was very impactful. Returning to the topic, no one can hide their jealousy over popularity of the mackerel.
Ryukishi: I think it’s part of Kumasawa’s popularity. If the Seven Stakes of Purgatory were considered as a group rather than individually, they might have ranked higher. Also, if Kumasawa’s votes were combined with the mackerel votes, it would be interesting to see how high they could go.
— And now Beatrice, who splits the popularity with Battler and Bern, is finally appearing in various scenes. As a question about the sense of incongruity, Beatrice is a very terrifying witch, yet she also shows deep emotion towards Kinzo. Even though witches might have two sides like humans do, it feels very strange.
Ryukishi: That’s an interesting theory. Some people have speculated on message boards that Beatrice might have multiple personalities or that there might be different Beatrices. But I can’t say more than that at this point.
— The differences in the character sprites between EP1 and EP2 might also be an element to consider.
Ryukishi: Since she comes from outside, I thought she might not have an everyday outfit, so I studied Gothic Lolita fashion through books. Some people who are knowledgeable about clothing can even identify the manufacturer. I was surprised when someone correctly identified the brand of Rosa’s long jacket. The next one was Kanon’s black coat, which was recognized immediately. Initially, I only had knowledge of Gothic Lolita fashion from Rozen Maiden, and upon further investigation, I realized it wasn’t even true Gothic Lolita.
The world of fashion is really vast and complex. It was quite fun to combine various elements to create Beatrice’s outfit. I’m now thinking about what to do next. It would be great if each episode had a different outfit for Beatrice, so you could identify the episode just by looking at her costume. Moreover, having Ekusa-san draw Beatrice really boosts my motivation. The power of key visuals is truly impressive.
— And speaking of witches, the two otherworldly witches introduced this time, Bernkastel and Lambdadelta, were very impactful.
Ryukishi: The witches are really something. They easily make it into the top 10, and they might even reach the top 5. The number of witches in the top 10 might unintentionally represent the degree of fantasy’s influence. Battler stands alone, resisting, but if he falls, the top ranks would almost entirely be occupied by fantasy characters. The current rankings might be a reflection of the world of Umineko itself.
— Previously, these characters only appeared in the Hidden Tea Party, so I thought they were more of a fan service.
Ryukishi: Actually, while it might have seemed like fan service, it was something we wanted people to find. We didn’t intend for it to be an overly tricky command. We hoped that eventually someone would discover it, that someone online would figure it out. However, many people missed it, so for EP2, I discussed with BT about changing the system. After some back-and-forth, we decided to make it more noticeable.
BT: We changed the specifications. The number of master keys is five (laughs).
(Everyone laughs)
Yatazakura: You just said that in red (laughs).
BT: It wasn’t a particularly difficult change, and personally, I was happy to see the Tea Parties getting more exposure, so it was totally okay with me.
Ryukishi: BT loves the witches, after all.
BT: Just make the Hidden Tea Parties the normal ones (laughs).
— The Tea Parties seem to be encroaching on the main story.
Ryukishi: Well, they are an integral part of it.
— The Tea Parties and the dialogues between Battler and Beatrice that appear throughout EP2 make they seem like they exist on a higher level.
Ryukishi: While it’s not entirely my place to say, they do appear to be entities from a higher world. While everyone is discussing the events unfolding before them, Battler and Beatrice observe and converse from a more detached perspective. What is real in the lower world appears more like a theatrical play to those in the higher world. This world contains multiple upper-level observers, and it certainly consists of multiple layers. I mentioned Schrodinger’s cat when explaining the multi-world concept in Higurashi, and often spoke of transcendental observers. Unlike in dramas, we don’t have observers in our world who can know everything simultaneously. Observers in this context are like the all-seeing eyes of God, encompassing this layered concept… Hmm, it’s quite difficult to explain. Consider it a new expression of a multi-layered world… I can’t say much more at this point. It’s a pity, maybe in a year, I’ll be able to discuss it more freely. However, regarding the Tea Parties, it’s crucial to note that they are not just an optional extra but a vital part of the main story. Whether they exist in a continuous world or not is something I’d like you to explore as you read.
— Let me press a bit further. Are Bernkastel and Lambdadelta similar to the two characters from Higurashi…
Ryukishi07: They do look quite similar, don’t they? (laughs)
— For those who haven’t played Higurashi, it might seem like the introduction of new characters.
Ryukishi07: That’s the right feeling. It would be too much if playing through all of Higurashi was required to enjoy Umineko. So, it’s half fan service, half linking the atmosphere between the two series. I’d be happy if you see it as an element that enhances the experience for those who have played Higurashi. Think of it like when having save data from a previous game unlocks new content in the sequel.
— Considering the flow so far, this time it seems like the “factor of witches” is truly profound.
Ryukishi07: The name is Turn of the Golden Witch, after all. It’s all about the witch’s turn (laughs).
— As expected, the impact was enough to almost completely eradicate the reality and human faction.
Ryukishi07: In EP1, the biggest reason for denying the witch was the belief that witches don’t exist. The idea was that if witches don’t exist, then someone must have been faking it. So, I presented a scenario where witches appear in every situation that was the top argument for that belief. As I mentioned in another interview, almost everything in Umineko no Naku Koro ni is crafted based on user theories and questions from a few months to half a year prior. It’s a very sadistic system where we find the users’ anchors and then crush them. So, EP2 was made for those who wrote their impressions of EP1, and at the same time, it was created by them. For instance, to address the suspicion that faces were crushed, we included intact faces on the corpses. So, next, perhaps, Beatrice might give a red text explanation for all the corpses to address the condition of not being able to examine the bodies. But the current issue is that even Beatrice’s red text is being doubted, so figuring out how to guarantee that is a challenge.
— As a final point, I’d like to ask you for a quick Q&A session.
Q1: What are the rules of the board this time, and what are the guidelines for deciphering them?
Ryukishi07: I think finding something that shines like the North Star is the best shortcut. However, it might be difficult to find it if you haven’t decided whether you’re on the side of the witches or the humans.
Q2: Given that the epitaph mentions ‘my beloved witch Beatrice’, it must have been Kinzo who had it made. So why is this incident happening? If he knows the answer, shouldn’t he just solve it?
Ryukishi07: It’s similar to the chessboard theory, but the question is, “Why would he write such an inscription?”. If he truly didn’t want to give it to anyone, there wouldn’t be any need to write hints. A quiz is a way to test people, and a trial is both a method of tormenting people and a way to find someone who can pass it. Kinzo might want someone to solve this quiz. According to the chessboard thinking, it seems Kinzo doesn’t intend to take the secret of the hidden gold to his grave. By writing something so meaningful, he wants someone to solve it. After all, it’s placed right in the middle of the hall.
— Moreover, the main story repeatedly urges the reader to try and solve this mystery. Despite this, several incidents occur that divert attention from the inscription’s riddle.
Ryukishi07: With family members dying one after another, there’s no time to worry about it. However, because so many incidents have occurred over two episodes, the idea that the epitaph might be more meaningful than finding the culprit has emerged. Realistically, with murders happening nearby, you can’t casually go on a treasure hunt. At the point of Episode 1, solving this mystery is almost hopeless. I know the answer, so I can see how everything connects, but solving it without any hints is too harsh. Hints will be gradually revealed with each episode.
Q3: In EP2, the victims of the first incident were different from those in EP1. Why is that?
Ryukishi07: According to the rules established in Higurashi, the information presented is not necessarily fixed. Only the common elements might be inevitable. This means the first six victims are not fixed, but the number six is. Those familiar with Higurashi might find various ways to think about this. However, whether this fact holds any significant meaning is still uncertain.
Q4: Why is there a deadline for collecting of the interest?
Ryukishi07: Why indeed? At the very least, the story always ends on the night of October 5th. The story could continue with the police arriving and moving into the 21st century, but it doesn’t.
Q5: What is the key for the moment the interest collection begins, that is, the fulfillment of the contract? Is it the moment Kinzo threw the ring?
(The 07th Expansion team smiles)
Ryukishi07: Who knows? When did the incident actually start? The first incident takes place in the early morning of October 5th or late at night on October 4th, as depicted. But where is the true start? Is it when the epitaph was written?
Q6: Regarding the Seven Sisters of Purgatory, it seems that the first incident in EP2 aligns with Gluttony, but why was there no stake?
Ryukishi07: As Bernkastel mentioned, Beatrice sometimes makes unnecessary moves. Lambdadelta was easy to read because she is pretty straightforward, but it’s unclear if that resonates with Beatrice’s sense of aesthetics. Sometimes the process itself seems to become more enjoyable than the outcome for her.
(The room falls silent)
Ryukishi07: You can doubt everything. However, somewhere within all this, there must be Beatrice’s true objective. Each time, murders occur, and everyone ends up dead—this part is consistent. Yet, Beatrice masks it with playful or whimsical moves.
A perfect crime isn’t tsundere. It’s the classic mystery, where there’s always a hint left in an otherwise impossible locked room, that’s truly tsundere. There will always be some clue left at the scene. Cases that are completely buried in darkness and turn into a maze are the true anti-tsundere.
Even though Umineko no Naku Koro ni might seem to claim a 0% solution rate, it actually leaves several hints, making it a bit tsundere by saying, “Why aren’t you solving this?”. The existence of the epitaph shows that Kinzo wants someone to solve it. It could be anyone; he even tells Kanon, “Even if you are furniture, you can solve it”. The one who dealt the biggest blow to Beatrice in EP2 wasn’t Battler, but rather Shannon. When she said, “I don’t know you”, Beatrice was enraged. So, Beatrice, who is always saying, “Believe in me, pay attention to me”, can be seen as the ultimate tsundere. If everyone was satisfied with Gohda’s steak and just left, the witch would feel terribly lonely. It’s quite a tsundere story.
Q7: Earlier, you mentioned that you might be able to talk about certain aspects in one or two years. Do you already have a final image of the work in mind?
Ryukishi07: I can’t say exactly when, but I already have a solid image of the overall structure of the story and the final scene. I want to respond to the readers’ expectations and questions while also creating answers that align with their hopes. I want to cherish the live experience of reading this together with everyone.
— Compared to Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, the story progression seems faster overall. Will this story also follow the question-and-answer format?
Ryukishi07: The pace of Umineko is indeed faster. Right from the start, we see a character who seems like the final boss, and there are moments that feel like foreshadowing, such as the classic “after this, we’ll get married” trope. This is partly because I’m considering the preferences of modern readers. However, I haven’t decided what to call the answer arcs yet. I’m not sure if they will be labeled as Kai (laughs).
— What can we expect from EP3?
Ryukishi07: In EP1, we introduced the world and the characters. EP2 covered the enemies, allies, and what needs to be done. Next, I believe it will be about the actual conflict. Although Battler was overwhelmed this time, he now understands the enemy and what needs to be done. However, by “conflict”, I mean an intellectual struggle rather than a battle in the traditional sense—whether to believe in the enemy or not.
— So, next it’s Battler’s turn?
Ryukishi07: Just when you think that, he might end up getting thoroughly beaten to the sound of Black Liliana (laughs).
(Everyone laughs)
Ryukishi07: I always aim to defy the readers’ expectations (laughs).
— Thank you very much. I truly apologize for focusing so much on the scenario and rules despite everyone being here today.
Ryukishi07: dai, you should say that 20 of your songs will be included in the next EP3 (laughs).
(Everyone laughs)
dai: I’ll do my best (laughs).
Ryukishi07: In reality, the script’s direction, the attention to line breaks, the combat scenes of Kanon and Shannon, and especially the golden butterflies, were all based on work made by Yatazakura.
Yatazakura: I think the way we present things in the direction part has been steadily increasing. As for the performances possible with Nscript, I believe we’ve done our best. If we want to go beyond this, we might have to borrow a more sophisticated engine and customize it.
Ryukishi07: BT really does everything. From managing the forums and writing scripts to even taking care of our health.
BT: I did a lot. Working on “Tsurupettan” was the most fun (laughs).
— In the end, could you give some advice to the users facing the witches or share your aspirations for the next installment?
dai: It’s presumptuous of me to give advice on the story, but I hope to deliver at least one good piece of music to everyone.
Yatazakura: For EP3, I hope to include some more outlandish scenes. Maybe something like actually flipping the chessboard (laughs).
BT: The next game will be a survival horror on Rokkenjima overrun by Goats, like Dead Rising (laughs).
(Everyone laughs)
Ryukishi07: Next time, it’ll be called Kuroyagi Musou (Black Goat Warriors).
Yatazakura: The Goats will also be anthropomorphized. Can players choose their characters, like Battler or maybe Bern as a secret character (laughs)?
BT: Right now, we are planning for it to be possible (laughs).
— It’s scary because when BT-san says something, you can never tell how much is a lie (laughs).
BT: Jokes aside, what struck me most in today’s interview was seeing how much fun the writer is having, even as they wrestle with the story. I’m envious because, knowing the true culprit and all the answers myself, I can’t enjoy it in the same way.
Ryukishi07: For Umineko, we’ve shared all the spoilers with the 07th Expansion team and the manga editorial staff. Even the slightest expression could risk inconsistencies if they weren’t in the know.
BT: Watching you struggle and think things through, it reminded me that this is how it’s meant to be enjoyed.
Ryukishi07: This time, the staff might be the ones who enjoy it the least.
BT: Once EP3 is out, the situation will change again. This moment, where EP2 is the latest and people are still figuring things out, is fleeting. I want everyone to relish the pleasure of puzzling over it in real-time.
Ryukishi07: Every time a new hint is revealed, this moment becomes the most enjoyable. I hope you savor the excitement of experiencing the series as it unfolds.
— Thank you very much, everyone.
Rena-Rena Toshokan 